Nala and Gaz get a "Nermal" [a journal on trio bonding]

[Imbrium]

Right before I left for my foster program orientation class at the Houston SPCA, I was teasing Roo (our older cat) and warning him that if he didn't behave himself, I might bring home a replacement for him from the shelter... but then I quickly admitted that he knew I'd never get rid of him no matter how naughty he was and switched to threatening to bring home a younger, cuter, better behaved cat to make him look bad - ie a "Nermal".

While I hadn't planned to, I ended up adopting a third bunny, lol. After having him home for a few hours, Jay and I were marveling over him - we've never experienced a NORMAL bunny before, who does normal bunny stuff, isn't always a naughty little naughty and can actually be trusted to roam a bunny-proofed room. We laughed over how bad he made Nala and Gaz look and realized that I'd inadvertently gotten THEM a "Nermal" .

I don't know if I'm actually going to name him Nermal. I do think it would be fitting, as his personality and manners basically make him Nermal to their Garfield, but RO already has a bunny named Nermal. I don't think she'd mind having to share the name... but I could see Reuben taking offense that he was no longer the only RO bunny with a "Nermal," lol.

Since the name he came with (Thumper) is horribly unsuitable for him, I've just been addressing him as "Sir". I think I might go ahead and just start calling him Nermal so he doesn't end up being named "Sir" permanently, lol. The last cat I had, who I loved SO much, went through life with the name "Ma'am" - I'd wanted to name her "Gaz" (this was almost a decade before Gaz the bunny came to be) but it didn't quite fit... I'd hoped she would grow into it, but she never did and by then, "Ma'am" had stuck.

~~~~~

Anyway, I thought I'd do a new, temporary blog for this little guy. My main blog is getting quite long (making it hard to find specific stuff easily) and my early experiences with this new bunny are liable to be pretty relevant to others now and then, since I'll be attempting to bond him to Nala and Gaz - something that's not commonly done, as trios tend to be especially tricky. F/F bonds are also considered potentially volatile, though, so hopefully I'm up for the challenge!

I think there's only been two lengthy "journal" type threads on trio bonding created in my year and a half on RO - Blue eyes' experiences with Mocha, Sapphire and Chip (an attempt at bonding an existing female to a M/M sibling pair from a shelter that was initially promising but ultimately unsuccessful due to the brothers fighting) and zombiesue's experiences with Tank, Mulder and Scully (existing male rabbit + M/F sibling pair (bonded) from a shelter; successful to date *knock on wood*).

My experience is already a good bit different from theirs - I'm trying to add a new shelter bunny to an existing bonded pair rather than the other way around. Hopefully a year and a half worth of insight into the bonded pair's dynamic will prove to be an advantage, since the biggest risk in trio bonding is that - if unsuccessful - it can potentially break the original pair's bond. Also, I'm dealing with a F/F/M dynamic rather than a M/M/F dynamic (which I suspect has note-worthy differences).

From the perspective of someone considering or attempting a bonded trio, the more trio experiences you can find to read about, the better, since no two trio experiences will be the same... so I'd like to keep my own write-up about it easy to find later. My main blog also tends to have more off-topic ranting and story telling than it has bunny stuff, plus it contains copious amounts of swear words. With a secondary blog thread, I can have my random tangents in the main one and keep this one less cluttered .

I do love my swear words and I see nothing wrong with swearing freely in any blog where the author establishes that as the status quo... but that's only because most blogs are pretty much personal conversations/chit-chat amongst friends. My thoughts on swearing (and the seeming consensus of everyone else here who likes to swear) is that wanton swearing is acceptable in threads that are obviously only read for entertainment purposes AND have a "personal" feel to them (as opposed to the public OT forum and "Bunny Chat"); anywhere else on the forums, swear words should be used sparsely if at all and the majority of the ones that don't set off the profanity filter still warrant self-censoring.

RO exists mainly as a means to exchange information. ALL bunny owners should want to learn and teach bunny-related stuff, but it's unfair to expect them all to be accepting of casual swearing... if for no other reason than that many people are parents and it's a known fact that little kids tend to get very nosy once they start learning to read. No parent wants to be reading a thread they assume is "family friendly" only to have their 5 year old wander up, point to a swear word and ask what it means. For that reason, I feel that uncensored obscenities belong in predictable and easily avoidable places as a matter of common courtesy.

In other words, since I hope to keep this thread more about my learning experience re: trio bonding/less a compilation of ramblings (not off to a great start in that aspect, lol), I'm going to make a point of not swearing my *ss off all the time and at least self-censoring if I do .

 

[Imbrium]

[I'll be posting more on the actual bonding part in a bit - just realized Home Depot closes in half an hour, assuming I don't get screwed by shortened holiday hours, and I want to make a quick run over there if I can remember in time what the heck it was I thought I had to have tonight, heh. Time to wander through my projects to see if I can jog my memory!]

 

[zombiesue]

Tank rabbit was introduced to Mulder and Scully at the shelter, and I took them home because that initial meeting went so well. Your third rabbit just happened to worm his way into your heart, lol. I think that's the most important, noteworthy difference between yours and my experience, anyway.

I wish you the best of luck. I'm eagerly reading everything lol.

 

[Imbrium]

*Sigh*... I finally remembered what it was I wanted from HD, but by the time I did it was like 2 minutes too late for me to actually get there and make it in the door before 10 pm. Oh well... on to the bonding whatnot!

I've never truly bonded rabbits before, though I've done a ridiculous amount of research/reading up on it and could give out bonding advice in my sleep. I *have* re-bonded my pair, but it's not the same as bonding two rabbits from scratch.

Nala and Gaz/background info:

I got Nala and Gaz at 7 and 8 weeks old, respectively. I just plopped them together, took them home and put them in the same cage... which worked out just fine, since fortunately it turns out that babies will get along with pretty much anyone. I got two girls because I picked Nala out first and she was female - another female meant no risk of babies (I figured a male could be neutered, but I also figured they'd need to be a bit older first).

I suppose I'd figured, based on experiences with other species, that you can just throw together two freshly-weaned juveniles (regardless of whether or not they're related) without fear of consequences - the "babies get along with anyone" thing is true of most animals. I think I also assumed that not all adult rabbits get along, the same way any two cats, dogs or humans might have unresolvable personality conflicts - after all, rabbits have personalities so of course they could potentially have personality conflicts. While I didn't consciously consider any of that, it must've been floating around in the back of my mind because I know I deliberately picked two bunnies that seemed to have fairly opposite personalities (one dominant/one submissive, though I didn't think of them in those terms until later) without really knowing/understanding why I was drawn to do so.

Anyway, I resumed my research after getting them home (they were pretty much an impulse purchase - I woke up intent on getting "a bunny" and spent half the day doing research like one would cram for a test; basically making sure I bought everything they needed and didn't get anything unsafe). I read that it was good to keep them in pairs but also that it wasn't considered mandatory, so I hadn't even decided how many rabbits I was going to bring home when I left the house to get them .

A day or two later, I found out that spaying was considered necessary for both health and bonding reasons when they hit puberty, which was news to me. The last time I'd had a bunny, they were supposed to be housed alone and you didn't get them spayed/neutered (the latter presumably being the reason for the former)... much changes in 20 years, though! I figured "ok, whatever (no big deal)" about the spays and made a mental note to find out what age the vet was going to want them to be.

Then I learned that it's possible for babies who are raised together to start fighting when their hormones kick in (at 4-6 mos for girls, the same age the vet quoted me for when they could be spayed). Again, didn't seem like a big deal... until, at 3 mos old, I asked about making an appointment for spaying in a month and the vet said he'd prefer to wait until 5 months old because of their small size. This meant there was a chance I'd have to house them separately (for safety reasons) for as much as a month pre-spay and another month post-spay (the time it takes for females' hormones to dissipate). I prepared for the worst.

Suffice it to say, it was a LONG month from when they turned 4 mos old until their spay dates! I vigilantly kept an eye out for signs of fighting, but I lucked out and they were able to stay together the whole time. Unfortunately a few days later, serious fighting broke out and I had to separate them for the rest of their recovery time... and then I had to figure how the heck to mend their inexplicably broken bond.

There was some trial-and-error (mostly error), a lot of paranoia and worry and then a realization that maybe it didn't have to be an ordeal that began with starting over from scratch. I asked my neighbor if I could bring them (and an x-pen) over to her house; she was thrilled with the idea of getting some "bunny time". I set the girls up in her kitchen and we had a play-date on truly neutral territory.

I was more than a little shocked when my neighbor alerted me to something, pointing at the rabbits, and I looked down to discover Gaz HUMPING Nala. WTF?? Why was my submissive girl trying to stage a coup? I panicked and shoved her off of Nala, forgetting that you're normally supposed to let it continue for a bit as long as it doesn't escalate. It worked out, though - she ended up not humping again and they somehow managed to overcome Gaz's power-grab without fighting.

When their bond inexplicably broke again a few months later, I went straight for the neutral territory trick and again, that mended their bond. There was a third incident after we'd been in Houston for a while, but that time I broke up the fight, monitored closely and that ended up being the end of it so I chalked it up to being a "domestic squabble".

~~~~~

I always told myself it was better if I didn't consider trying to add a third rabbit, since same-sex bonds are supposedly so volatile to begin with and I wouldn't ever want to break my girls' bond. However, in the back of my mind, I secretly suspected it might work out okay if the right male happened to fall in our laps.

When I saw "Thumper" on the HSPCA site, I fell in love... but I assumed I'd be able to say "no" if I met him in person because my concern for the girls' bond would outweigh his adorableness. I really didn't expect a rabbit dumped at a shelter to very obviously (while still at the shelter) display a personality that managed to stand out to me as appearing compatible with the Nala/Gaz dynamic. I thought wrong, heh. Somehow, he came across as dominant enough that Gaz wouldn't want to challenge him, yet submissive enough to bow down to Nala without a fight. I hedged for maybe half an hour, confirmed that I could return him if things didn't work out, lied to myself regarding my ability to make him go back to the shelter later and then jumped in head first.

~~~~~

The more I got to know this little guy after bringing him home, the more I started to think that this whole thing might actually manage *not* to bite me on the butt... which was a relief, since I'd found out he was only neutered about a week before I got him - I knew there was no way I could keep him for 6-8 weeks (of waiting for hormones to GTFO) PLUS 2-4 weeks of attempted bonding all while maintaining a mindset that would make it possible to return him. Heck, it only took a few HOURS for me to be so in love that I knew he was here for keeps... even if it meant housing him separately from the other two for the rest of their lives because I couldn't bond them.

 

[Imbrium]

Session 1
The shelter only allows play-dates between dogs (boo!)... I was told it was because "they wouldn't be able to pull rabbits apart if they started fighting." I wanted to respond, "No, YOU wouldn't be able to pull them apart - I can, have and would" but I figured it wasn't worth making a scene over. [Mental note: explain the necessity of bunny-dates to the clueless shelter people and convince them to let me chaperone bunny dates as part of my volunteer work should the situation arise.]

I wanted to do preliminary intros as soon as possible - I knew I'd probably have to wait out his hormones to do serious bonding work, but preliminary intros would give me an idea of what I was dealing with so that I could think about my approach in the meantime.

I knew hormones could cause humping, which could be construed as an assertion of dominance and result in fighting. In other words, hormonal male + uber-dominant Nala = clusterf***... and if I allowed that to happen even once, it could severely hinder my odds of ever bonding the three. Luckily, I also knew that a willingly submissive bunny doesn't take offense to said dominance display and fortunately for me, I've got a super-submissive little loaf.

Nala actually ended up meeting him first (though not really by my choice) about 24h after I brought him home. He was in an x-pen in our bedroom and I was at my desk when Jay came in to unexpectedly deliver a Nala. I was wary, but allowed him to hand her over and crossed my fingers she wouldn't take immediate offense to the strange bunny in the room. I figured if I was holding her, I'd be able to closely monitor her vitals and pick up on even the most subtle signs of tension or aggression (though the downside was that I'd be the scapegoat if she got pissed off and bitey). Surprisingly, her body language showed no indication at all of any negative emotions; she was pretty much like "ok, whatever" with a hint of curiosity.

After a while, I let her jump off my lap... watching like a hawk every time she strayed remotely close to the x-pen, prepared to have to break up a fight through the bars at any second. Nothing. She hopped around; he hopped around. They both seemed very "Oh, you're a bunny? I'm a bunny too. Imagine that." I was amused, but I still scooped her up after a few minutes because I didn't want to push my luck.

Later that evening, I started hearing crashing noises and such from the x-pen... shrugged them off as him demanding out and told him it was better for him to be in a small space for the first couple days. Then I turned around right *as* he made a racket and witnessed him bouncing into the side of the pen as he attempted to do a binky in a space that just didn't allow it. I almost wanted to cry for a split second there! I dropped everything I was doing to clean up/bunny proof the bathroom and hallway for him so he'd have room to do a real binky.

Nala and Gaz did have free run of those areas for a couple weeks before proving they couldn't be trusted, but that was months ago... so right after I moved him to his new space, I figured I'd do a face-to-face with him and Gaz in the hallway/bathroom area before he could decide that it was "his" territory.

I put Gaz down a few feet away from him. There was brief sniffing followed by crazed humping. I let it go on for 10 seconds or so, since I knew that's what you're supposed to do as long as there isn't serious fighting and she sat there like a loaf the whole time. Pushed him off and he went right back for more.

We repeated that a few times, then she hopped into his cardboard box and turned around to face out... hormonal little bugger tried to hump her face! I broke that up RIGHT away, because bad things can happen when one rabbit humps the "bitey" end of another (even though she had it coming because I've seen her try to hump Nala's face before!). She came out of the box; more humping. After about 3 minutes of him humping, her loafing and me separating, I decided that was enough for one day. If she can put up with that so willingly, I imagine she'll put up with pretty much anything.

I put Gaz back in the pen. I'm sure she reeked of "new guy" smells. Nala came up to her right away and started sniffing her cheeks off... I watched anxiously for any sign things were about to go south. The sniffing and investigating went on for a long time but ultimately, Nala decided she didn't mind that Gaz smelled like another bunny.

All in all, preliminary intros went even better than I had hoped! Next step is to periodically use Gaz as a litmus test of sorts to gauge how bad his hormones still are - once he can do something other than constantly try to mate, I can do a face-to-face between him and Nala. I figure I'll work out any major kinks between him and each girl separately and then once they're okay with that, I'll get all three together on fresh neutral territory.

 

[Imbrium]

Tank rabbit was introduced to Mulder and Scully at the shelter, and I took them home because that initial meeting went so well. Your third rabbit just happened to worm his way into your heart, lol. I think that's the most important, noteworthy difference between yours and my experience, anyway.

I wish you the best of luck. I'm eagerly reading everything lol.

Actually, I really was capable of being immune to his charm for my girls' sake - the reason he found his way into my car was because I did a mental play-date between the three that looked really promising, lol. In retrospect, I think it worked out much better that way - a real play-date would've gone south in a hurry due to him still being so hormonal and Nala being so "I'm the alpha bunny!" but the mental play-date (which appears to have been reasonably accurate) removed the hormone variable from the equation. (He's never shown any signs of being hormonal when there wasn't another rabbit to hump, so I had a good feel for his true personality.)

For what it's worth, I've picked out a companion for a very "alpha" female before, which made me much more confident in my ability to get a read on this potential trio. The other time involved sugar gliders rather than bunnies, but the glider introduction/bonding process has more similarities to bunny bonding than differences.

I picked a cage-mate for Hurricane without any input from her... apparently she approved of my choice because I did a preliminary intro (at home/on neutral ground) that went SO shockingly well that I ended up moving them in together - in HER cage - immediately after the introduction (which started with setting their sleeping pouches on the floor a foot or so apart, lasted all of 2 minutes and ended with them curling up for a nap in her sleeping pouch). That's like six kinds of "no no" rolled into one, yet it couldn't have gone more smoothly! (Normally, it takes at least 4-8 weeks to get through the process of scent-swapping and gradually moving their cages closer together followed by doing supervised bonding sessions on neutral territory before you even consider letting them move in together... which is supposed to involve a "neutralized" cage that neither of them thinks of as theirs. Oh, and like with rabbits, females tend to be significantly more territorial than males.)

Basically, I used my intuition to get away with something that I would tell anyone else "You really shouldn't ever do because it's not safe," lol. [Edit: forgot to mention, I *did* stay up all night with their cage right beside me just to make sure I hadn't misjudged things and it really was safe to have them together already.] What can I say, I know what type of personality will make each of my dominant girls happy. Maybe it's because I'm predisposed to hate other members of my own species too, so I know what it takes to overcome that predisposition .

 

[zombiesue]

Humping isn't just a hormonal behavior so it won't be a good indication. Some rabbits are just really, really humpy. A long time ago I tried to bond Tank to a different rabbit (didn't work out) but he'd hump him nonstop if I let him. They just do it to show dominance, they're not trying to mate. Rabbits know they can't mate with other rabbits of the same gender although they don't act like it sometimes LOL.

 

[Imbrium]

Yes, but *incessant* humping a week post-neuter in a fairly submissive-seeming bunny is most likely hormonal . If it continues past the 6-8 week mark, then it's definitely a dominance display. Body language suggested, however, that he was acting on an impulse to mate that was set in motion the split second he realized there was another bunny in the room.

 

[JBun]

Hey, where's the pictures!!!

Being as laid back as he seems, I would bet the humping subsides when the hormones do. Took my boys about 3 weeks before it started to go down, and 4 weeks til it hardly happened at all.

He just seems like the greatest little guy! I hope it all works out. I'm attempting a trio too, but I have less faith in mine succeeding because of that big grump Dakota. But I guess you never know. Yours seems like it has a pretty good chance though.

 

[zombiesue]

Ohhhh. Well, if he doesn't cut it out in a few weeks I'd say it's just him LOL but it could still be hormones at this point yes.

I can't wait to see how this unfolds. I'm dying to know the future. I love bonding journals. LOVE. THEM. Thanks for making one.

 

[Imbrium]

I'll see about some pics tomorrow - Jay is sleeping so I don't want to turn on a bunch of lights, and I don't want to subject Nermal to copious amounts of flash photography.

I forgot that I was also going to make this a bit of a "how to deal with a new bunny" thing... he's not flighty like many new bunns, but he does HATE being picked up (or held in place) with the fire of a thousand suns. Also, I've never dealt with a bunny this size before - while he's far from huge at a bit over 7 lbs, he's no dwarf! I do have the benefit of lots of experience dealing with 11-16 lb cats that fight like hell over nail trims, but with cats you don't have to be paranoid about the possibility of self-inflicted spinal injuries from kicking their back feet into open air full-force so a 7 lb bunny is actually more of a challenge than a beast of a cat.

I can sometimes pick Nermal up without offending him, but it's extremely hit and miss so far and I'm still running down the potential variables to up the success rate. He acts like he's never been picked up before, lol... maybe that's why he got given up for being too big, that the previous owners were scared to pick up a struggling 7 lb bunny? Too bad for him, we require our bunnies to accept being "got" periodically so he's just going to have to get used to it . He's already vaguely more accepting about being scooped up; I feel like I have better luck if I catch him by surprise with an ambush-scoop.

I'll probably post a video in the next day or so - was hoping to ease my way up to the nail trimming point but unfortunately I discovered that neither the shelter nor the vet who did his neuter bothered to trim his nails, which are in a state of fairly bad neglect. I need to do them ASAP, but am too tired for the whole video ordeal at the moment and he seems unfazed by their length. I think it may only be the back ones that are really bad (didn't actually look, I just felt the back ones while I was petting him earlier) and he's been running around on both carpet and hard flooring like he doesn't have a care in the world. I need to take him in for his free vet check (offer expires after Friday) and could have it done there, but they'd probably charge extra and I'd probably do a better job.

I've never actually tried to flip him on his back yet - I plan to do it for the first time while shooting the video. I fully expect him to make an fool out of me as I learn through a bit of trial and error how to manage him during a nail trim (considering he's much stronger, larger and prone to fighting me than the girls). I suppose I could save face by getting the hang of it privately before doing the video, but I think the "making an *ss" of myself route will be more beneficial for newbie rabbit owners. After all, their rabbit is bound to get the better of them so I figure it might help to see how a more experienced owner regains control of the situation when things start to go south. How-to videos that make a difficult task look FAR more easy than it's actually going to be for a beginner aren't necessarily that helpful (hence wanting to do a second handling/nail trim video with a less cooperative demo bunny).

 

[PaGal]

Thank you for starting a bonding/dealing with a new bun blog! I am sure it will be a big help to those looking to bond buns or those dealing with a new bun or larger bun.

I am really looking forward to the video. Thumper is laid back as all get out but does not want p, combining the two so icked up. I have trouble because of his larger size and my small size. I don't need to pick him up for nail trims. He melts into the floor with nose/check rubs and will just lie calmly while I trim a nail in between pets.

Hhhmmm. Have you given thought to naming him Sir Nermal?

 

[Imbrium]

Hehe, too cute! I keep wandering back to the name "Howie" too... one of the other bunns at the HSPCA is named Howie, but it doesn't seem to fit that bunny. Kinda works for this one. Only thing is that there's another bunny with the same name and I'm going to be either fostering that Howie or working with him a lot at the shelter, so it seems weird to give them the same name ><

 

[Apebull]

OK and where is the pictures at! I'm dieing to see what Nermal, aka Sir possible aka Howie looks like. And aren't you worried that the terrible duo are going to turn him to the dark side once they are bonded?

 

[Imbrium]

Pfft, too late. He's already a total jerk to the cats, just like the other two. He only behaves to get cuddles and veggies.

 

[honore]

I posted some comments back in the summer when I decided to adopt a male from the shelter for my older female. I was looking for somebody her age (6 years old), but all they had were younger rabbits. Our dog had just died and the rabbit was lonely, so I didn't want to wait any longer and just adopted one who was her size and who I'd thought could put up with Clementine's complicated personality. The bonding took some time, but went pretty smoothly overall. They have been best of friends and are a great bonded pair who really look to be into each other.

I continue to worry about their 5 year age difference, though, and am thinking to adopt a third rabbit from the shelter. That way, when Clementine passes, Charlie won't be too depressed. Having a male and a female pair, what gender do you suggest would be most successful? Charlie is more rabbit social and easy-going than Clementine. I would describe her as "complicated". She comes across as dominant and moody, but underneath all that "tough-girl", is really a very sensitive and emotionally needy rabbit. I really could not tell which of the two is the alpha rabbit, since they seem to take turns. Clementine occasionally humps him from the front, but right after that she grooms him. Charlie doesn't seem to mind either way. He never humps her, but he does make her groom him (sticks his head under her chin) when he comes up to her.

Anyway, I'm writing all this just to get a clue and hopefully some advice on which gender might be the best for my future trio...

Thanks and Happy 2014 to all!

 

[Imbrium]

I'm honestly not sure which gender would be better... and it's probably more about personality in the end anyway. I would look for a shelter that allows bunny dates if you're interested in a trio. Keep in mind, though, that adding a third bunny to a bonded pair is a big risk - not only can the trio not work out, it can potentially break the pair's bond. It would be a lot easier to find him a new companion when the time comes, as he's likely to be very receptive to finding a friend if he's a bit depressed over losing her. Also, males tend to be a lot less territorial so it's easier to bring a new bunny home to an existing male than to a female. I think a trio is more something to be open to if the situation presents itself than something to go looking for - if you do try to find a new bunny to add to your pair, I recommend being very picky and patiently waiting for the perfect one

 

[Imbrium]

Here's the new guy playing with some packing paper and then instigating my foot/the camera

I got his nails trimmed... it was way easier than I expected! He did try to fight, but I held him *really* snugly and he let me do it with minimal struggling. Video's uploading now.

 

[Aubrisita]

Aw, he really is cute. I too love reading bonding journals. It is good research for me.

 

[Imbrium]

I had *never* tried to flip him before this video. I just about got him flipped on the first try, but then he started struggling. For his safety and so that I could regain control, I flipped him back upright... but I immediately shifted him around and flipped him right back onto his back to put my foot down about which one of us is the boss.

I arbitrarily ended up turning sideways (relative to the camera) when I sat down this time... I think I like it better that way; seems to give a better view of how I'm handling him.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQzlUM2NEFY[/ame]