Litter Training Question

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button+banjo

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Hello! I just joined this forum as it seems helpful. :)

So we have two Holland lop brothers named Button & Banjo, (they look exactly alike), that are neutered & bonded. They are about to turn 2 on November 1st.
They live on the front porch, and are let out of their cage into a pen during the day. We are planning to move them into a bigger hutch with a pen attached (on the porch), but they have to be litter box trained first. Right now they are 100% trained on the litter box for pee and (most) of the dry pellets. The problem is cecotropes.
They are both a little over 4 lbs (and quite chubby), and leave cecotropes EVERYWHERE. When they are in the exercise pen they rub them on the porch (and then hop through it), and at night all in their cage (not in the litter box). But they do appear to be normal cecotropes, not liquid or anything. I did watch one of them balancing up against the wall of the porch trying to eat them but ended up leaving most of them on the floor. 0_0
So I was wondering if anyone on here had any tips on stopping this? They are very hard to clean up (especially off the cage), since they dry rock hard. Plus they can't move into their new pen until they are at least 99% litter trained.

Thanks so much!
 
At 2 years of age, there should be no cecotropes anywhere. This is unusual. Are you sure they aren't just messy poos? Rabbits eat their cecotropes directly from their body. Cecotropes should never be seen.

Perhaps these are messy poos which can result from an improper diet. Could you please describe their normal diet?

I'm attaching a video that shows a rabbit eating his cecotropes.

https://youtu.be/tN8RR4c4d4A
 
At 2 years of age, there should be no cecotropes anywhere. This is unusual. Are you sure they aren't just messy poos? Rabbits eat their cecotropes directly from their body. Cecotropes should never be seen.

Perhaps these are messy poos which can result from an improper diet. Could you please describe their normal diet?

I'm attaching a video that shows a rabbit eating his cecotropes.

https://youtu.be/tN8RR4c4d4A

Hi,

We just got them at the beginning of this year (although we have had rabbits before), and apparently they were litter box trained when we got them, but they have just been going in a tray under cage until about a week ago when I introduced the litter box. I am 99% sure they are cecotropes, as they look exactly like the cecotropes in this picture I found online:
rabbit_pellets.jpg


Like I said, I saw one of them today trying to eat them directly while balancing up against the wall, but he ended up leaving it (or most of it) on the floor. Both bunnies are leaving them everywhere. That's the thing, I did think they were supposed to be eating them so thought it was strange that they were leaving so many around.

As for their normal diet, they are eating Manna Pro Select Series Pro Formula Rabbit Feed, one cup every evening (they both share a feeder) It is always gone in the morning. Here's the "Guaranteed Analysis" that;s on the bag:
Crude Protein (min.) 16.0%
Crude Fat (min.) 2.50%
Crude Fiber (min.) 16.00 % - Crude Fiber (max.) 21.00%
Calcium (min.) 0.75 % - Calcium (max.) 1.25%
Phosphorus (min.) 0.50%
Salt (min.) 0.25 % - Salt (max.) 0.75%
Vitamin A (min.) 3,000 IU/lb.

They also have a hay feeder that is always filled with timothy hay from Tractor Supply. It comes in a plastic bag labeled "Standlee Premium Western Forage Premium Timothy Grab & Go Compressed Bale" It is labeled for horses and is a big bale so lasts a long time.

Thanks again!
 
Excess protein in the diet can produce excess cecotropes. Since they are both neutered, the max protein should be 12-14% but better closer to 12. The manna pro is for made for breeding rabbits that need more protein.

So the pellet feed is high in protein and the amount consumed daily is also too high. Normally, a rabbit that size should get just 1/4 cup of pellets per day. They should also be getting daily greens to go along with the decreased pellets. Those greens should be introduced slowly however to give their tummy time to adjust. Once they are used to greens, they should get about 2 cups of fresh greens per rabbit each day.

I am not a big fan of hay feeders since they sometimes discourage hay eating. This can be for two reasons. One, is that some hay feeders have small opening that make it too much work for bunny to get an adequate amount of hay each day. Two, is that hay sitting in a feeder tends to sit there for days. But rabbits love it when hay is first put in their cage. Something about it being freshly put in their cage encourages them to eat it right away. I refresh hay twice per day and the rabbits always jump right to it and start eating. If the hay has been sitting there for several hours, they tend to somewhat ignore it.

A way to gauge how well they are eating their hay is that each rabbit should be eating his body size in hay every day.
 
Excess protein in the diet can produce excess cecotropes. Since they are both neutered, the max protein should be 12-14% but better closer to 12. The manna pro is for made for breeding rabbits that need more protein.

So the pellet feed is high in protein and the amount consumed daily is also too high. Normally, a rabbit that size should get just 1/4 cup of pellets per day. They should also be getting daily greens to go along with the decreased pellets. Those greens should be introduced slowly however to give their tummy time to adjust. Once they are used to greens, they should get about 2 cups of fresh greens per rabbit each day.

I am not a big fan of hay feeders since they sometimes discourage hay eating. This can be for two reasons. One, is that some hay feeders have small opening that make it too much work for bunny to get an adequate amount of hay each day. Two, is that hay sitting in a feeder tends to sit there for days. But rabbits love it when hay is first put in their cage. Something about it being freshly put in their cage encourages them to eat it right away. I refresh hay twice per day and the rabbits always jump right to it and start eating. If the hay has been sitting there for several hours, they tend to somewhat ignore it.

A way to gauge how well they are eating their hay is that each rabbit should be eating his body size in hay every day.

Hi,

The manna pro does say on the bag that it is for "dry bucks and does" and that they have another formula for lactating mothers and babies, but it does have 16% protein, so according to what you're saying then that is too much. What pelleted feed would you recommend? Also I do refresh the hay every day. It is right next to their litter box so they pull it down and eat it there too.

Thanks!
 
Like Blue Eyes said, you should really never be seeing cecotropes on a regular basis like that. They should always be consumed by the rabbit, with an occasional one being left behind being ok.

So there can be a few reasons that your buns aren't consuming all of their cecotropes. It sounds like the cecotropes are coming out fully formed and not pasty, which is a good thing as it means their gut bacteria isn't out of balance. So the likely causes of your rabbits leaving their cecals behind is that if they are overweight and chubby, this can make it difficult for them to reach down to consume them, so some are getting left uneaten. The other likely reason is that they are getting too rich of a diet and producing more than they need.

The solution to both possible causes is a change of diet. If you prefer to continue feeding the pellets that you have, that can work but you will need to decrease the amount you are feeding, or you could change brands(I feed oxbow adult pellets) but that should be a gradual transition over at least a couple of weeks so you don't risk upsetting their gut bacteria. The recommended amount for non breeding/pet rabbits is 1/4-1/2 cup of pellets per 5-6 lbs of body weight(in addition to unlimited grass hay) but this is just a general guideline. The best gauge on how much pellets to feed is if they are underweight, overweight, or have normal good body condition. You say your boys are chubby, plus with the excess cecals, this means they are getting too many pellets and need less protein/pellets and more fiber from hay. If your buns are chubby at 4 lbs, then their healthy weight may be somewhere closer to 3.5 lbs. So that would mean about 1/4-1/2 cup shared per day, would be the general amount of pellets that they would need. Again this is just a guideline and you go more by body weight and condition to determine the best amount to feed, along with if they are producing excess cecals.

What I would do is gradually reduce the pellet amount over the next week or two, so they gradually can get used to the change and you don't upset them by suddenly decreasing their pellets. Plus you can monitor what effects the gradual change produces. So the first week I would decrease down to 3/4 cup shared per day. If you can split that up into twice daily feedings(so 1/4 and 1/8 cup each feeding), that would be even better so they aren't eating all of their high calorie pellets in just one block of the day. Then because they are getting less pellets they will be eating more hay, so their hay should be topped up as needed so they don't ever run out of it. It's important to closely monitor their hay consumption, because you have to make sure that they are eating the hay really well to make up for the reduced pellet amount. Some rabbits will just starve themselves and not eat the hay when you reduce their pellet amounts, so monitoring hay consumption is important.

I would continue at that amount of pellets for the first week, then the next week I would reduce down to 1/2 cup shared per day, or 1/4 cup twice a day. And again making sure there is always access to hay, with fresh hay each day, and that they are eating it really well. You should start seeing a reduction in the amount of excess cecals left behind in either the first or second week. If the excess cecals stop at the 1/2 cup shared per day, and both buns are able to maintain a healthy weight, then I would stick with that amount of pellets for them. If at that amount they are still producing excess cecals, you could reduce the pellet amount some more. But if the reduced amount of pellets is causing them to become underweight while still producing excess cecals, that means that something in those particular pellets is an issue for them and you will likely need to change to a different type of pellet, like a grass based pellet.

If the buns are really good hay eaters and I was certain they were consuming plenty of hay, I might just skip right to 1/2 cup per day shared from the start. But this drastic of a reduction you have to be absolutely certain the rabbits are consuming plenty of hay and that you monitor their weight closely.

Once you get their pellets to the right amount and they are consuming more hay, and they start losing that excess weight, you should see excess cecals stop completely. Cecals being left behind on a regular basis is almost always a sign of something being wrong, whether it's a health issue, diet issue, stress, or distraction.
 
I gota agree with JBun on this and fallow what was said.

Hi i feed my 2 dwarf rabbits Manna Pro Select Series Pro Formula and have no problems with excess cecotropes anywhere in my cages i see them eat theres all the time while there sitting in there litter box and there poo is a normal round hardish pellet that look just like the dry hard pellets in that pic. Thats whats always in there litter boxes. Now as far as breeding goes i will be breeding these 2 does come March. Our Conti Giant will be on Manna Pro Gro Formula which is 18% protine for big growing buns that need the extra protine, thats what we always fed our Flemish Giants and never had any problems with excess cecotropes.


Could is be you just switched them over to Manna pro??

As for hay i use a more medow grass mix as they seem to preffer that over the timothy hay.
 
I gota agree with JBun on this and fallow what was said.

Hi i feed my 2 dwarf rabbits Manna Pro Select Series Pro Formula and have no problems with excess cecotropes anywhere in my cages i see them eat theres all the time while there sitting in there litter box and there poo is a normal round hardish pellet that look just like the dry hard pellets in that pic. Thats whats always in there litter boxes. Now as far as breeding goes i will be breeding these 2 does come March. Our Conti Giant will be on Manna Pro Gro Formula which is 18% protine for big growing buns that need the extra protine, thats what we always fed our Flemish Giants and never had any problems with excess cecotropes.


Could is be you just switched them over to Manna pro??

As for hay i use a more medow grass mix as they seem to preffer that over the timothy hay.

They have been eating Manna Pro since we got them. . .

I think I am going to switch foods as they are neutered/overweight, and it may help with the cecotrope problem if there is less protein in the new food, like Blue eyes and JBun said.

I am trying to decide between Sherwood, Sherwood Professional, American Pet Diner Timmy Pellets, Small Pet Select Timothy Based, Oxbow Organic, Oxbow Garden Select, Oxbow Essentials, and Zupreem Nature's Promise Timothy Naturals.

They are all around 14% protein (their current food is 16% protein) except for Oxbow Organic and Garden Select, the problem is that those two are also the most expensive. . . I know Blue eyes said it should be around 12% protein.....Anyone have any suggestions? Experience with those foods?
 
It doesn't need to be 12%. 14% is fine and what many pet rabbit owners feed. Besides, if you get them eating less pellets and more grass hay, this also reduces the amount of protein they are getting in their diet, since grass hay is usually lower in protein. The problem you are having is that they are getting too much protein from too many pellets, which their current pellets are also high in protein.

Those are all good pet brands. The only issue you could have with one is the sherwood food is made with alfalfa, which is high in calcium. Rabbits prone to bladder/kidney issues from excess calcium are likely to have problems with alfalfa in their diet, this would include the current food you feed.

Just remember if you switch foods to do it gradually over a couple of weeks at least, keeping an eye out for any signs of digestive upset. Also, some rabbits don't like being changed off of their usual pellets, especially if the new pellets don't taste as good. So you could have issues with them being reluctant to eat the new pellets.

I feed the oxbow adult and like it just fine. I have several rabbits, so it's more economical for me than the other pet brands, as I can get it in a 25lb bag for a decent price.
 
It doesn't need to be 12%. 14% is fine and what many pet rabbit owners feed. Besides, if you get them eating less pellets and more grass hay, this also reduces the amount of protein they are getting in their diet, since grass hay is usually lower in protein. The problem you are having is that they are getting too much protein from too many pellets, which their current pellets are also high in protein.

Those are all good pet brands. The only issue you could have with one is the sherwood food is made with alfalfa, which is high in calcium. Rabbits prone to bladder/kidney issues from excess calcium are likely to have problems with alfalfa in their diet, this would include the current food you feed.

Just remember if you switch foods to do it gradually over a couple of weeks at least, keeping an eye out for any signs of digestive upset. Also, some rabbits don't like being changed off of their usual pellets, especially if the new pellets don't taste as good. So you could have issues with them being reluctant to eat the new pellets.

I feed the oxbow adult and like it just fine. I have several rabbits, so it's more economical for me than the other pet brands, as I can get it in a 25lb bag for a decent price.

I think I'm going to switch them to Oxbow Essentials, I was already leaning towards that one anyway due to the price + lower protein, :) I will update this on what happens after they're all switched! I'll also reduce the pellet amount like you said.

Thanks!
 
Hi everyone, I'm back with an update:

So, I switched them to Oxbow Essentials, and decreased their amount of food (they share a feeder) to 1/2 cup a day (this was all done slowly), along with unlimited timothy hay. And now they are no longer leaving cecotropes everywhere! I haven't seen any on the floor in weeks. :)

Thanks everyone for your advice!
 

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