I think Felix has an upset tummy...

Hi all!

Felix is a 9-week-old Netherland Dwarf, who I was mistakenly feeding spinach and several small pieces of fruit to in the previous week, before learning that a bunny so young shouldn't be eating any fruit or veg! :{ I feel horribly guilty...

We fed him spinach/fruit from Sunday - Thursday, and one small piece of spinach on Friday since he seemed to be feeling down, and I assumed that since he hadn't reacted adversely to the veg, one small leaf wouldn't hurt (especially since I didn't want to feed him treats and suddenly take them away, I thought I'd be better to wean him off so he wouldn't feel as though I was being cruel).

Last night he seemed to be a bit antisocial, nudging at my hands sometimes when I went to go pet him in his hutch, however I thought that was because we'd spent some time earlier trying to get him used to his new harness (no-go). When I woke up this morning and checked on him he was in the same mood, however I noticed that there were a few piles of messy cecals in the area where he likes to sleep. He's normally quite good with not leaving these around and as there were a few piles (probably 4-6), I'm concerned that he may be having a late reaction to all the greens he was getting earlier in the week. :{

I can't hear any loud gurgling and he's still chewing on hay, and obviously he's still having movements so at this point at least I don't think I need to be concerned about GI stasis (knock on wood). I also haven't heard any teeth grinding, so I may just be worrying too much.

Is it possible for Felix to be having an adverse reaction to the greens he was being fed this late? I began feeding him greens on Sunday, and only this morning has this started. Otherwise, is there anything else that could have caused this? Or am I just overreacting - he's been a bit messy and maybe just a bit antisocial yesterday?

Sorry for the long-winded post, Felix is my first bun and I've got overprotective mama syndrome!

:dutch

Does his fecal poop look smaller than usual? You'll want to stop all fruit/treats and veg. That's really good he's still eating hay. Hay is going to be the best thing to help his digestion and poop get back to normal. You want nice big crumbly fecal poop and no mushy cecals. Basically if you aren't seeing the cecals and your rabbit is eating them, then they're good. And keep an eye out for reduction in fecal poop size and amount, or stopping altogether, and reduction in eating or stopping altogether. These will usually be the first signs if your bun isn't feeling well. Then there's changes in behavior and signs of pain like sitting hunched up and not moving for long periods, changing positions frequently to find a position of comfort, tooth grinding(not the contented tooth purring when being petted), eye squinting, rapid breathing, excessive grooming. So just keep an eye out for any of these things.

As long as he hasn't been stressed about anything, it was probably the fruit and veggies. It does sound like he wasn't feeling well, but cutting out the fruit and veggies should get him felling better. As long as he is still eating and his poop is looking pretty normal, then he should be ok. But if you are worried at any point or you're not sure he is feeling well, best to have him checked by your vet.

Just for future reference, food introductions/changes should always be started in small amounts and gradually added or changed. A rabbits gut bacteria needs time to adjust to the new food, and it also give you a chance to see if there are any adverse affects to a particular food. When your rabbit's a bit older you could try veggies again. And fruits should always be in small amounts if at all. Some rabbits just can't tolerate the sugars without them causing digestive issues. I personally don't feed fruit and just stick to veggies as treats.

Excess cecal production (which will cause rabbits to leave cecals uneaten) can be caused by too rich a diet, so that may be due to the fruits and veggies. Also, babies sometimes forget to eat them all. I wouldn't worry about that issue.

As Jbun said, the important things are that your bunny is eating his hay/pellets normally, that his fecal poops are normal in appearance and quantity and that he's not showing any signs of pain or discomfort. You might even cut back on his pellets slightly for a day or two to encourage him to eat extra hay, as hay is so beneficial to digestion.

If you have some pet probiotics on hand or can find a place to buy them locally (pet stores and feed stores often sell them), those can be really helpful to any animal having tummy troubles. They're not a "must" but they can't hurt and will probably help. BeneBac Plus is the best one I know of that's sold in stores, as it has both prebiotics and probiotics; Probios is another popular brand. The gel is most likely easier to administer than the powder where rabbits are concerned (my girls will eat it straight). I know Petco sells BeneBac online, but I'm not sure if they have it in all their stores.

Above all, try not to stress out too much - animals pick up on that . We've all made a mistake or two as beginning bunny owners (I screwed up and put mine on alfalfa right away when they came home because they were babies, not realizing that I needed to transition gradually from the grass hay the breeder had been giving, and Gazzles got very mild diarrhea). I'm sure Felix will be back to normal in no time!

Thanks very much, both of you! I already feel much calmer. I'm at work but my housemate's at home watching Felix, I asked him to text me if there were any problems. :}

JBun said:

Does his fecal poop look smaller than usual? You'll want to stop all fruit/treats and veg. That's really good he's still eating hay. Hay is going to be the best thing to help his digestion and poop get back to normal. You want nice big crumbly fecal poop and no mushy cecals. Basically if you aren't seeing the cecals and your rabbit is eating them, then they're good. And keep an eye out for reduction in fecal poop size and amount, or stopping altogether, and reduction in eating or stopping altogether. These will usually be the first signs if your bun isn't feeling well. Then there's changes in behavior and signs of pain like sitting hunched up and not moving for long periods, changing positions frequently to find a position of comfort, tooth grinding(not the contented tooth purring when being petted), eye squinting, rapid breathing, excessive grooming. So just keep an eye out for any of these things.

As long as he hasn't been stressed about anything, it was probably the fruit and veggies. It does sound like he wasn't feeling well, but cutting out the fruit and veggies should get him felling better. As long as he is still eating and his poop is looking pretty normal, then he should be ok. But if you are worried at any point or you're not sure he is feeling well, best to have him checked by your vet.

Just for future reference, food introductions/changes should always be started in small amounts and gradually added or changed. A rabbits gut bacteria needs time to adjust to the new food, and it also give you a chance to see if there are any adverse affects to a particular food. When your rabbit's a bit older you could try veggies again. And fruits should always be in small amounts if at all. Some rabbits just can't tolerate the sugars without them causing digestive issues. I personally don't feed fruit and just stick to veggies as treats.

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His cecals didn't look abnormally sized, but I was in a bit of a rush this morning, so I didn't get to look too closely. My bigger concern was that it was a pretty large amount (he's left one pile before on his first night with me, but there were several this time), but I guess that was caused by the digestion changes. I'll be slowly reintroducing vegies when he gets a bit older, because he seemed to loooove his spinach!

Imbrium said:

Excess cecal production (which will cause rabbits to leave cecals uneaten) can be caused by too rich a diet, so that may be due to the fruits and veggies. Also, babies sometimes forget to eat them all. I wouldn't worry about that issue.

As Jbun said, the important things are that your bunny is eating his hay/pellets normally, that his fecal poops are normal in appearance and quantity and that he's not showing any signs of pain or discomfort. You might even cut back on his pellets slightly for a day or two to encourage him to eat extra hay, as hay is so beneficial to digestion.

If you have some pet probiotics on hand or can find a place to buy them locally (pet stores and feed stores often sell them), those can be really helpful to any animal having tummy troubles. They're not a "must" but they can't hurt and will probably help. BeneBac Plus is the best one I know of that's sold in stores, as it has both prebiotics and probiotics; Probios is another popular brand. The gel is most likely easier to administer than the powder where rabbits are concerned (my girls will eat it straight). I know Petco sells BeneBac online, but I'm not sure if they have it in all their stores.

Above all, try not to stress out too much - animals pick up on that . We've all made a mistake or two as beginning bunny owners (I screwed up and put mine on alfalfa right away when they came home because they were babies, not realizing that I needed to transition gradually from the grass hay the breeder had been giving, and Gazzles got very mild diarrhea). I'm sure Felix will be back to normal in no time!

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I was thinking of buying a probiotic for him, but wasn't sure if it was entirely necessary. I've since read that NDs tend to have more easily upset digestive systems, so maybe I will pick some up for him. :} He does seem to like the hay I'm giving him, but he's also not a massive eater. I'm not entirely sure if I've got lucerne or timothy hay right now, but I'm going to be ordering some lucerne online which might help, since it's sweeter.

Quick update - came home to a fine little bun, if a bit cranky (not really wanting to spend time with mama tonight, but I'll blame the loud soccer game and house full of unfamiliar men for that). He's going crazy on his hay, and my housemate said he'd hand-fed him a few pieces today that he happily ate up. I even think he went back and ate a few of the loose cecals!

I did find a little pile of pellets that I think he might be throwing out of his food mix, which is another concern, but his package of pure pellets should arrive next week so I can make sure he's getting the correct nutrients. :}

pani said:

I'll be slowly reintroducing vegies when he gets a bit older, because he seemed to loooove his spinach!

I was thinking of buying a probiotic for him, but wasn't sure if it was entirely necessary. I've since read that NDs tend to have more easily upset digestive systems, so maybe I will pick some up for him. :} He does seem to like the hay I'm giving him, but he's also not a massive eater. I'm not entirely sure if I've got lucerne or timothy hay right now, but I'm going to be ordering some lucerne online which might help, since it's sweeter.

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It's worth noting that spinach is high in both calcium and oxalic acid - it should be very limited (only one veggie high in OA offered per day, accounting for no more than 1/3 of their total leafy greens for the day, and the same high-OA veggie shouldn't be offered more than 3 days out of the week). See http://rabbit.org/suggested-vegetables-and-fruits-for-a-rabbit-diet/ for more info on veggies; http://www.3bunnies.org/feeding.htm#greens also has great info.

Probiotics should be used any time an animal is put on antibiotics, undergoes surgery or is rehomed or otherwise stressed and they're highly recommended at any sign of digestive upset (or, with rabbits, GI stasis). I swear by them!

Sugar gliders are pretty prone to stress-induced diarrhea when they get re-homed (and as a breeder, I've brought home more gliders than most), which can require a vet visit and a round of antibiotics to clear up. I experienced this the first two times I brought new gliders home. The second time, I knew the vet would give us antibiotics so I gave probiotics at the first sign and the glider recovered faster than the first time.

With Tabitha (third time), I noticed loose stools that weren't actually diarrhea (yet) and gave probiotics, then kept an eye on her overnight with the intention of taking her to the vet in the morning if she wasn't better or at least improving... but she was 100% back to normal by the time the vet opened! After Tabby, the wisdom of preventative probiotics finally clicked and I started giving new gliders dinner dosed with probiotics first thing when I got them home.

Hobbes (4th) and Abigail (5th) both came home appearing *significantly* more stressed than other gliders I've brought home, but thankfully my hypothesis proved out - based on behavior/outward signs of stress, they both really should've developed stress-induced diarrhea, but neither one ever did.

I also had Gazzles display some warning signs of what could've become GI stasis once; after trying simethicone and even metacam in an attempt to get her eating, I finally had a *duh* moment and whipped out the BeneBac - it did the trick and she was back to normal in no time.

~~~~~

As for the hay... lucerne (aka alfalfa) is a legume hay rather than a grass hay and, if it's not what he's already eating, he needs to be weaned onto it very gradually (the same way you'd transition from one brand of pellets to another). It's also not a bad idea to make sure his tummy's back to normal before introducing it.

I recommend (based on my own personal experience and that of others who struggled with picky bunnies when they hit the 7 months old mark) that you *don't* switch him over to lucerne completely. Legume hays have too much calcium, protein and calories for adult rabbits (aside from pregnant/lactating moms). After growing up on unlimited lucerne/alfalfa, some bunnies really put their feet down about being switched to grass hay and make it exceptionally difficult to find one they'll eat. My bunnies are about a year and a half old and not only did I have to feed them an 80/20% orchard/alfalfa blend until a couple months ago just to get them to eat any grass hay, I'm still having to order orchard grass online instead of getting feed-store coastal for a fraction of the price.

I would limit the lucerne to a maximum of 50% of his hay intake so that he doesn't get too attached to it

Also, for what it's worth, most feed stores (at least in the US) sell alfalfa/lucerne and their hay is a fraction the cost of ordering online or buying from pet stores. While they don't often have timothy, ANY horse-quality grass hay is perfectly acceptable for bunnies (though with "cereal" types like oat, wheat and rye, you need to remove the seed heads before feeding because they're high calorie and provide excess carbs that can lead to tummy troubles or even GI stasis).

Some copy/paste advice from my "rabbit" notepad file (from back in the day when I answered a ridiculous number of bunny questions on Yahoo Answers ):

Buying hay at the pet store is the biggest rip-off EVER. For one medium-sized bunny, a year's supply of hay from the pet store is around $300. A year's supply of hay for the same bunny if the hay is purchased by the bale from a feed store is around $12. Yeah. Over a 10-year lifetime (which is about average for a bunny), you'll save **** near $3000 by buying hay by the bale.

A bale can be stored for a year or more as long as it's kept clean, dry and insect free. I bought two half-bale bags from http://www.tackwholesale.com/bale-bags-c-11.html (I went with that instead of a full-bale bag because the half-bale bags are easier to move around and can be stacked to take up less space). Alternatively, you can use a rubbermaid type storage bin or even unscented large plastic trash bags. If you bring bags/containers to the feed store, they'll typically split up the bale and package it for you free of charge.

While you're at the feed store, I recommend grabbing a bag or two of wood pellets (they're usually kiln-dried pine) - they come in 40 lb bags and typically cost around $5-8. If you live in an area that actually has winters, an alternative is to buy wood stove pellets from a hardware store (same size bag/same price range) as long as they don't say that they have an accelerant added to them. Wood pellets are the cheapest option as far as buying litter box litter and tend to do a great job at odor control.

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