What is causing Occasional Coughing w/mouth & nose mucousy discharge (RIP)

Hey Glenn,

Welcome to the forum.

I can definitely tell your bunny guy is very much loved. I'm sorry that he's struggling so much at the mo.

This is purely speculation, obviously, but when I read that my first thought was tooth issues (more so root issues, than spurs), or a URI (potentally Pastuerella, but obviously there are different types and strains of those types of infections, all of which respond differently to different anti biotics).

Is Hornsby on any treatment for this at the moment? I read about what he is on for his back/leg, but just wondered if they have, as yet, prescribed anything for this.

There are different drugs available in different countries, so if you could put your country in your profile that would be great. It will enable you get more relevant help. Thank you.

This has been a bit of a pointless reply, sorry, but think of it as a bump up the forum if this reply is useless to you.

Hi Glenn, can you put your location in your profile? That will help with what drugs, ailments, etc, are common to your area.

Did the vet's office who caused the back problem take an x-ray? If so, did it show the lungs? Always good to make sure they're clear.

Head x-rays will also show or rule out a tooth root issue, which isn't visible in a visual exam. (It wouldn't be molar spurs).

Is the clinic admitting responsiblity? They should be treating him for free if they are, and that includes the current problem. This is holistic medicine.

What antibiotics is he on now? Is it time to try something else? Two weeks I think is the usual to show or not show improvement. If you're finally stuck with only being able to try different antibiotics, what's next?

At his age these could be an unrelated problems, but the stasis and/or back injury may have weakened his system and allowed the respiratory issue, or the stasis could have been a symptom of the budding issue to begin with.

So far in my bunny journeys, I've seen tooth root abscesses, an abscesses in the back of the throat, lung tumours and a mouth full of hair cause some sort of mouth breathing/coughing symptom.

There is a fairly recent thread about bunnies and Bortadella, hopefully our broken search engine will still bring it up.

Hoping for the best for Hornsby.


sas :expressionless

Hi Flashy!

Recently he'd been on Baytril & Cisapride; we ended both, per the prescription run, on 6/16; he's been back on Mylicon off & on the previous 2-3 days(not today)as we suspected he still had some gas; we have a new bottle of Baytril that my wife, Ginger, picked up Friday when the vets said "we don't know what's up w/him", but they gave her the Baytril anyhow...(weird, stressful situation, Ginger started working at the vets only a month ago & that's where Hornsby had his back broken)

You are the best...thank you...we are in San Diego by the way; my wife volunteers regularly with SDHRS, knows Judith Pierce, Patricia & others you perhaps know as well.

Glenn

Eep. That IS an awkward situation, for all involved.

I too am wondering 'what is next'. What antibiotics can you try next after the Baytril, because it sounds the Baytril is not doing enough to help if this is an infection. The fact you are in the US is a big bonus because so many people on here can suggest useful information RE meds, if your vets are not sure.

I had a bun who did not have the trauma that your bun suffered but did get a Lower respiratory infection that became resitant to baytril.

the vet really wanted the baytril to be the 'cure' so put her on a6 week course of the oral stuff . I knew it wouldn't do it asI knew this bun too well and she had been on baytril previously,2 weeks into the treatmentmy buns waswheezingand heavy labored breathing came back full force but this time also with nasal discharge .
So basically she developed a resitance to baytril and became sicker at the same time.

Tracy (Flashy) has already brought up the most important points.

Getting a culture and sensitivity is important but getting the bun on some effective meds in the interim period is more important.
Radigraphs of the skull for dental issues also needs to be done and hopefully they can do them without anesthesia asI am unsure whether she could tolerate that.

I thought my girl had bordatella also. Vet said she would need a tracheal wash to get a specimen and since this required anesthesia on a bun who was having difficult respirations we never tried it.
I am not a vet but have been heavily influenced by another mod on the forum (ra7751) who is a wild-life rehabber and a rabbit educator. he would suggest a potent combination of several drugs to really kill off the bactria.

Randy often uses zithromax at his rabbit rescue (highly effective for bordatella) and also injectiable bicillin which is give subqutaneously every other day.
Another drug is an injectable drug marketed for cats and dogs but now being used on rabbits. It is a cephalosporin called Convenia and requires an injection only once weekly.

I don't know what kind of vet you have but my experience is that unless you run into someone who truly treats a lot of rabbits and knows rabbit physiology well you wil usually gt a vet who is not comfortable treating a rabbit in an aggressive manner with antibiotics.

This happens frequently where I live. ..baytril, baytril baytril . baytril is so overusedmany aggressive infections are resistant to it.

I am very sorry re. the horrible accident that the vet tech created for your bun and i realize there are multiple issues going on here with him. I think a major shift in thinking on antibiotics is the way to go.

We have some info that you could give to your vet re. bicillin and/or Randy (who is not a vet but is extremelyknowledgeable re rabbit medicine is always willing to discusshis current info with a vet who would be willling to talk to him.

Keep us up-dated.on your poor guy .
Maureen

Hi Glenn,

First, welcome to the forum.  I think we might be able to help you.  Next, I might come across a bit blunt in my response but it's my concern with your "specialist"....not you.  Please do not take anything I say personally....it is very apparent you are a responsible rabbit slave and it shows....and we all know the hardships that are the reality of today's world.  And accidents happen but I have a problem with a spinal injury in a clinic.  What was the response to that?  I would think the clinic might would "owe" you one since your rabbit's problem might very well be related to what happened there.

First, rabbits can't technically cough.  Most likely what your rabbit is experiencing is something like post nasal drip in humans.  The namesake of our rescue would "cough" exactly as you described.  The root cause of her problem was really a root cause....overgrown molar roots in the upper arcade.  They had invaded the "sinus" (rabbits don't have a sinus but I use the term due to all of being familiar with the area) and the pus in those chambers would drain back into her throat.  The proper diagnostics would be radiographs of the skull along with a nasal and/or throat culture.  But as you know, these are not inexpensive diagnostics.  The lifting of the head and stretching is an indication of a lack of oxygen...trying to clear an airway.  This is many times an indication of a LRI but could be congestion in the head.  Look at the tongue and gums...bet they are whitish or even purple when this is happening.  Rabbits are also "obligate nasal breathers"....when they are stretching to get air, they are breathing thru their mouth and that is never a good thing.  Bordatella is carried sub-clinically in nearly all rabbits but rarely causes real problems...but it is possible if the immune system became stressed....like from a traumatic injury.

The spinal injury can also lead to some fluid build up in the body due to lack of movement.  We have lost several "special needs" thru this.  One was a hemaphrodite....both male and female but genetically female.  She had fully splayed rear legs...similar to a paralysis condition.  When her (his) hormones induced a quick weight gain, the lack of movement cause edema.....Congestive Heart Failure.  Fluid build up in the body should certainly be considered here.

Cisapride and other gut motility drugs are something that I never use here.....I consider tham totally inappropriate for rabbits....especially a paralyzed rabbit.  Most vets use these drugs because at one time, rabbits were thought to be almost identical to cats.....we now know the truth.  All of my supporting vets are exotics specialists (living near a major vet school has advantages)...and not a one of them will even consider using these drugs in rabbits. 

Living with a paralyzed rabbit can be challenging but can be done.  If the spinal trauma is at L7, you will have to express the bladder quite often or toxins will build over time.  We have also seen the gut start to become rigid...which means it also becomes dehydrated.....with lack of movement caused by paralysis.  Leads to stasis quite a bit.  Drugs are not the answer and those drugs can cause severe problems....hydration is more important than ever in a paralyzed rabbit.  And keep in mind that Buprenorphine (as most narcotics) will slow the gut.  The thing here is to determine the balance between the drugs and potential GI slowdown.  And Metacam can be harmful to the kidneys and liver when used in dehydrated animals....and a rabbit in stasis is always dehydrated.

This may be a couple of problems working in tandem.  I would do a two prong attack...first working on the suspected dental issue and infection in the skull....and then on the issues caused by the spinal.  And just wondering....what was their medical response to the spinal trauma?  We have had some success in treating spinals by using a combination of sedatives and anti-inflammatories (steroids are contraindicated in rabbits...especially ones with a potential bacterial infection).  Depends on the damage to the cord.

Since you are in San Diego....you have one of the best rabbit doctors in the world....not in the country....the world.  Here is a link to his clinic.

http://drexotic.com/

While I am not a huge fan of HRS, as with all groups there are some very good people with them.  And there is one of the top HRS rescues in San Diego.  Contacting them for help might be another option.  I certainly can understand the costs being a factor...I see the costs first hand every day.  And I mean no disrespect here at all because I know how it is...but in my rescue, especially with wildlife, we have to make decisions based on what is best for the animal...and not for what is best for us emotionally.  An option, and I just mention for your consideration, is to call the local HRS and see if one of their volunteers would be willing to help.  There are some people in rescue, and I am one of them, that prefers to work these "special needs".  But as a last resort, maybe consider surrending Hornsby to one of those very special people that every rescue has on staff that is qualified and enjoys working "special needs".  Like I say, a last resort, but Hornsby's welfare should be the first priority.

I have dealt with this many times.  Feel free to contact me if I can help.  And please give Dr. Jenkins a look.  His reputation everywhere is nothing short of spectacular.  Good luck.

Randy

I think Randy is talking about Save a Bunny, which is a great rescue that focuses on special needs. www.saveabunny.com

They may have funds available to help.

Also, check out IMOM. http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=17175&forum_id=16 Because Hornsby is older and special needs, these organizations may be more willing to help, especially since it was terrible luck that caused his paralysis.

I don't have anything medical to add to this, as it has been ably covered.

San Diego HRS is an awesome organization.

www.sandiegorabbits.org.

Saveabunny is in San Francisco, they may have outside funds, but I honestly doubt it, and even less likely for owner surrenders, but won't hurt to drop them a line.

He probably isn't a good candidate for IMOM, I wouldn't bother.

You may also want to join [email protected].


sas :expressionless

Ooops, San Deigo, San Francisco, probably pretty obvious that I've never been to CA!

Randy,

I cannot find the words to adequately express my gratefullness for your beyond sincere & comprehensive response to my call for help. Regardless of outcomes for Hornsby, pleaseknow that when the 1st opportunity arises...whatever that is...I (we) will 'pay this forward', however we are able, with respectto SHRR& RO.

Re: >What was the response to that? I would think the clinic might would "owe" you one since your rabbit's problem might very well be related to what happened there.


The good news: SDHRShas beenpicking up the tab to this point; because of the clinic's good relationship with Judith at SDHRS, I theorize that the clinic is reciprocating to SDHRS, as this would be a win-win for both organizations, which we support.

The bad news: Since the trauma occurred, the initial reaction from the 2 vet specialists appeared to be sincere gut-wrenching shared anguish, although they still maintain that "we do not know how this could have happened..."I have carefully reviewed the before & after radiographs (they are within 4 days of each other)& they are very telling. As well I shared them with the renowned biologist & rabbit expert (you know who I mean?) in Miami, who agreed with me. This trauma was not the result froma violent kick-out by Hornsby while supposedly wrapped in a bunny burritto prior to anesthesia to perform an oral exam. The back is brokencleanly & completely in3 distinct areas. (I should add that my BS meter is very good) However as things have progressed, the vets' response has become inexplicably increasingly distant. After one of the vets saw Hornsby on Friday for the coughing, breathing, discharge, he did recommend a Culture & Sensitivity test but quickly added that "he didn'twant to do it because Hornsby would have to be anesthetized again"& without any further explanation or elaboration re-filled his Baytril & recommended a new course of that while stating, "We don't know what's wrong with him (Hornsby)." No s_ _t sherlock...and that was it!Ginger & I are interpreting this in one of two ways: 1) While the vetsand their clinicare listed as rabbit specialists in & withreputable rabbit resources, in reality, they are not as specialized or certainly as up-to-speed as they proclaim & are advertised tobe, which is reprehensible for other bunnies & their families as well. Or, 2) The current behaviors of the vets& certain vet techs re:concern for Hornsby seems very contrary to how others have responded. This behavior or perceived lack of caring further,albeit circumstantially, along with the radiographssupports our theory that they are covering up the truth & concerned about their reputation...my wife had just started there as an administrative assistant...they don't know her (she is a kind genuine soul that exudes this) and perhaps they are suspicious of what we might do. Regardless, it seems it would be in everyone's best interest if the vets took a more pro-active attitude w/Hornsby. Truly frustrating.

Re:>The proper diagnostics would be radiographs of the skull along with a nasal and/or throat culture.<

I 100% concurr. After digesting your response, the other very knowlegable "bunny specialists' " replies here on RO & my own due dilligence, I have decided to immediately schedule a meeting with the vets and in a non-confrontational but direct manner get things out in the open so we can move on with the most important issue, which is Hornsby & your recommendation, as it independently confirms what I expected to do.

Should they not be receptive,I shall speak with Judith at SDHRS to see if Hornsby's care can still be provided for with Dr. Jenkins, who we know &appreciate, or Hornsby's last regular vet Dr. Rose Brown. As you've likely deduced, the only reason we reluctantlybrought Hornsbyto Ginger'snew employer in the first place was because of our devastatingfinancial situation.

I shall as well check the links Tony Shuman thoughtfully provided.

Re:>If the spinal trauma is at L7, you will have to express the bladder quite often or toxins will build over time.<

Thankfully, his ability to independently evacuate his tropes, feces & urineare not inhibited...lol...far from it. AmI missing anything? Does the bladder need to be "expressed" eventhough he can go on his own? I believe the trauma is centerd aroundat L5.

Re:>And just wondering....what was their medical response to the spinal trauma?<

Only Metacam & Buprenorphine and only after we adamantly refused the vet's recommendation to euthanize him...that was all they prescribed; this prescribed treatment & recommendationwere giventhe day after Hornsby's trauma when his trauma was confirmed. This particular vet's philosophy as he stated himself, is that buns that are facing this type of disability do not have any quality of life (Personally, I find this form of absolutethinking unacceptablefor a "rabbit specialist")While Ginger & I understand that may indeed be true for many buns, we agreed that without causing anymore suffering to Hornsby, we had to give our Boy a chance. We have been beyond vindicated, so far on that point. With the assistance of SDHRS& my own relentless research we learned what non-medical treatments we had to do, needed to do & could do.

Re:>We have had some success in treating spinals by using a combination of sedatives and anti-inflammatories (steroids are contraindicated in rabbits...especially ones with a potential bacterial infection). Depends on the damage to the cord.<

Hornsby has regained limited use of his left hind quarter &has stood on 3 legs and "walked" or rather tenderly hopped just a couple, few strides, then rests in his now usual position reclined on his right hind quarters' side; the right remains completely paralyzed. I suppose we'll wait for the Culture & Sensitivity test
before we do anything with steroids.

As well, we will keep alert for the other complications that you've brought to my attention (i.e. fluid build up, gas& stasis including alternative treatments as you suggest)

Thank you again for sharing your invaluable knowledge & experience.

Appreciatively,

Glenn, (Ginger :thanks:, Hornsby & Angel :bunnieskiss)

Thank you Tony!

I'll keep you posted.

Glenn

Hi Pipp,

Thank you so much for reaching out to us.

SDHRS figures prominently in our lives, as my wife Ginger volunteers with them & Judith Pierce, Patricia & othershave been a God-send.

Randy, here on RO, is the REAL DEAL...WOW!!!

Thank you again!

Glenn

I just wondered if this Can't Afford A Vet article may be useful for you, given how tough things are for you right now.

Please keep us updated as this situation progresses.

Hi Maureen!

Thank you for posting your reply.

You have included some great possibilities & we will follow up...thank you so much!

May I ask what happened with your 'Girl' bunny?

I have posted a detailed reply regarding the situation addressed to RO's Randy.

All for now,

Glenn

I am so glad that you are getting the help that you need. I am so sorry that you are dealing with vets who cannot own up to their mistakes. There is nothing that makes me think less of a person than that. Poor Hornsby... but he has a great owner and hopefully some of his motor skills will return (sometimes happens)


What happened to my "girl bunny"?



Well I usually don't publicize it but Randy through private extensive e-mailing taught me how to give her bicillin injections. The bicillin can be bought over counter in farm stores. I ordered what I needed on-line and treated her myself...very correctly ( I am also a retired RN)
I could not get the help I needed by the vets here in rural WI so I took the matter into my own hands and would have been unable to do it without Randy's gracious assistance.

I always recommend others to get proper vet care (if they can)
The bicillin alone knocked out the respiratory infection , however due to her age shedevelloped other problems with her mobility most likely due to severe arthritis and calcification in her spine. She is no longer with me but when she left this world it was not due to a respiratory infection.

I know that you will keep us all up-dated on Hornsby's complicated

condition , Glenn

Maureen

UPDATE: HORNSBY

Hello All... Maureen, Tracy, Pipp, Tony Shuman& Randy,

Hornsby-RIP crossed over early this morning. I posted a short poem on the Rainbow Bridge forum.

SINCE WE LAST POSTED: We started 3X/day nebulization treatments just over a week agoper the recommended treatment protocolfroma good bunny vet whoevaluated him. The vet ruled out any tooth root problems; his lungs were clear.We continiued his Metacam as well. The vet was not in favor of running the culture & sensitivity test, which after lengthy questioning by me, in the endmade sense.

Up until yesterday, Hornsby's appetiteremained good, activity was fairly lively (with the rear end paralysis and all)& alert; the nebulization seemed to initially improve things, but his episodes continued.

A week ago, just after the vet examined him, his urine &poops became & continued to beunusually acridly odiferouswith no change in diet.Otherwise, status quo. Then out of nowhereall day yesterday he wouldn't eat. Suspecting likely recurring stasis, we layed hands upon him with endless tummy massages...My wife syringe fed him twice which he accepted...barely (20 cc's Critical Care & baby food), then hardly (just 10 cc's). He was lethargic most of the day, though still able to evacuate what little he had.. I stayed up with him & early in the morning hours for the first time he presented to methat he was in pain.I immediately gave him some Buprenorphine which calmed him, but he was still hyperventalating, became limp & had that bad, telling bunny eye so we rushed him to hospital.

With an oxygen mask, he was completely limp now, pulse racing, breathing labored& eyes wide. Heroic measureswere out of the question, so without haste we gave the order& he went peacefully.

We now await his necropsy results. I shall post the findings as soon as they are available.

I am very greatful for the support & goodwill which you GOOD PEOPLE availed to us.

All for now,

Glenn

I am so very sorry Glenn. What a terrible loss this must be. You took more than excellent care of him .

I know how sad you must feel but it almost sounds as if after his accident and its total effects on his body that being an older guy maybe all of this was just too much for him.
I am truly sorry \

Binky Free Hornsby

"Hugs"
Maureen

I'm so sorry you lost him. You certainly did the very best you could for him, but it seems that it was just his time to goo. It must have been very hard to see him struggling in that way and know that there was nothing you could do. You gave him a great life with you and lots of love.

Thank you for the update. If you don't mind, it might be informative for us to know the necropsy results, if you're willing to share them.