Post Grape Nuts - OK to feed?

Hi all: I'm sorry if this question has been asked but I'm reading all kinds of conflicting rabbit husbandry articles and I'm so new to rabbit ownership. So I thought I'd come where people can talk back to me.

SUGAR: We've cut back quite a bit on the granola (too much sugar) and we have found Grape Nuts. He loves them and their hardness seems like it would be good for his teeth. Are these OK to feed? Say - a pinch three or four times a day? He gets so excited at treat time, I'd like to give him a little treat all throughout the day to fill the long hours.

GRAINS: We still give him a pinch of rolled oats in his pellet dish. I've heard that's ok but I know it's a grain and I've heard that grains are bad for rabbits. The grains issue really has me confused. Can someone point me to a definitive article on grains for rabbits? Thanks so much!

I wouldn't feed grape nuts due to the unnecessary and potentially harmful carbohydrates, especially if you're already feeding oats. I did find one source that said very small amounts of oats or cereal are ok as a treat, but only if your rabbit isn't prone to any digestive problems... however, I'd like to add that if you feed cereal, you should go with something whole grain and not something made with white flour (I'm guessing grape nuts are whole grain?) and you should take a look at the ingredient label of your rabbit's pellets - if the pellets you feed are already high in carbs (most pellets contain unnecessary carbohydrates), then adding more as a treat probably isn't a good idea. if you feed something like sherwood forest that's very low in carbs, however, then it might be ok if your rabbit tolerates it well.

from http://www.therabbithouse.com/diet/rabbit-digestive-system.asp

Having such a specialised digestion system has drawbacks. Whilst it’s very efficient at processing high fibre - low nutrient food like grass, the wrong types of food or sudden diet changes can easily disrupt it throwing the whole digestive system out of balance. For example:​

• Too little bulky hay or grass to help food move along the gut slows it down and stops food travelling at the optimum speed for the digestive process to work.
• Too much carbohydrate or protein can send the gut into overdrive and produce sticky unformed droppings.

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from http://www.mybunny.org/info/rabbit_nutrition.htm

A rabbit's cecum maintains a delicate mix of protozoa, yeast and good bacteria, which is crucial to keeping your rabbit healthy. If something upsets the delicate bacterial balance (such as stress; some oral antibiotics such as penicillin & related drugs; a high fat, low fiber diet; too many carbohydrates, etc.), bad bacteria will begin to grow. These bad bacteria produce toxins that can be harmful or fatal to your rabbit.

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from http://www.coloradohrs.org/articles/diet_detailed_generic.asp

Treats For Rabbits
Fruits and grains are high in carbohydrates and sugars, which can cause serious digestive upsets. However, given in tiny quantities as treats, they delight rabbits (as candy does children), and most rabbits will tolerate them. Avoid dried fruits. The sugars are too concentrated, and it is easy to give too much.

Grains[SIZE=+1]
»[/SIZE] Rolled oats or barley
Avoid grain treats if your rabbit tends to have any kind of digestive problemso give no more than ½ teaspoon per pound of body weight per day (no earlier than 12 weeks)[SIZE=+1]
»[/SIZE] Unsugared whole-grain cereals such as Corn Chex, Cheerios, and bite-sized Shredded Wheat[SIZE=+1]
»[/SIZE] Dried whole-grain bread and whole-grain crackers

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Our rule of thumb is our dogs get dog related foods and treats, the bunnies get bunny related foods and treats and that leaves all the good stuff for us. Bacon and chocolate!!

I haven't been able to find anything decisive about oats. Many pet owners stay away from them, but many breeders and show rabbit owners will add oats to pellets to help bulk up and keep their coats shiny and such so I think it's okay in tiny treat amounts. I also give a tiny pinch of oats per day, and while it's probably not the best, she LOVES it. Digression alert, but she's a very picky eater and I've used it to train her to go back into her cage at dinnertime, instead of having to spend 30 min chasing her around the house. If I put her dinner bowl in there without the oats, she will refuse to eat and turn around and stare at me until I add them. So while probably not the healthiest, I don't think it's much worse than any other treat. I've heard very bad things about cereal though - though again, there are plenty of people who've fed their rabbits much worse. I would absolutely stay away from it if possible though, and switch to a small piece of fruit for a treat. If you are giving cereal, it should only be one or two tiny pieces max per day. There are a lot of things in there they're just not designed to digest.

yeah, a small amount of oats is FAR healthier than a small amount of people cereal in my mind.

as for a tiny pinch of oats per day... for a rabbit who has no history of GI stasis AND no weight issues (as in overweight), I really don't think it's going to cause any harm. I occasionally give Nala maybe 1/2-1 tsp of steel cut oats as a special treat... I will NOT give them to Gazzles, though, because Gazzles is a little chub-butt and the last thing she needs is a snack that goes "straight to her hips" - I'm actually trying to get her to lose a little weight.

Thanks all - there needs to be a big spreadsheet with these details about nutrition. For example it could have categories like staples, treats, dangerous foods, etc. and then those categories broken down into actual foods. And then actual nutrition values (fat, sugar, carbs) can be listed as well. Newbies like myself who can look at this kind of thing at-a-glance would be a lot less confused! When I got Coco, I admit I had no idea that feeding him was nothing like feeding a dog or a cat and it's been a huge education. Thanks again!! Gloria

I'm far too lazy and have far too many half-finished projects on my plate to even consider coming up with a single, all-encompassing source for bunny diet info... however, I can definitely provide a myriad of sites that - in their entirety - give **** near all the information you could ever wish for.

rabbit food pyramid - http://www.rescuerabbitsrock.com/rabbit_diet.htm

general rabbit diet info:
http://www.rabbit.org/faq/sections/diet.html
http://www.3bunnies.org/feeding.htm

veggie lists/veggie feeding info:
http://www.rabbit.org/care/veggies.html
http://www.3bunnies.org/feeding.htm#greens
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Food/Food_main.htm

sugar glider dietary spreadsheets:
http://www.sweet-sugar-gliders.com/calcium_phosphorous_ratios.pdf
http://www.gliderkids.com/FruitVegLIST2011.pdf

yes, I know, a bunny is not a sugar glider... however, the glider community seems to have put significantly more effort into scrounging up the nitty-gritty details as far as dietary information for fruits and veggies; all of which is surprisingly relevant to rabbits.

the rabbit.org site stresses careful moderation of veggies that are high in oxylates and provides a list of high-OA veggies... however, I've discovered that their list is *far* from complete. the first of the two sugar glider links gives significantly more detail regarding oxylate content than rabbit.org does.

the 3bunnies.org veggie info fails to mention OA-related concerns at all... but unlike rabbit.org, it emphasizes concern for calcium content.

in all fairness, the link between the amount of calcium ingested and calcium-related issues like bladder sludge is dubious at best according to may sources (including Geoff, the vet who visits RO from time to time)... however, I've yet to see definitive proof that it's safe to completely disregard the idea of possible side-effects from feeding your rabbit high amounts of calcium-loaded veggies, so I feel it's best to provide people with the calcium information and let them make their own decision.

calcium is trickier than any rabbit-related site I've ever seen lets on, though. the TLDR of it is that, at a 1:1 ratio, phosphorus binds to calcium and they cancel each other out. for example, artichoke has a significantly high amount of calcium in it... but it has about twice as much phosphorus as it does calcium, meaning it ISN'T a veggie that you have to worry about due to a "high calcium content" (not the best example in regards to bunnies, as it's a non-leafy green that should be severely limited, but it illustrates the point).

as far as leafy greens go... I've heard people warn that kale is high in calcium. it contains 5.65 mg of calcium per tablespoon (4.19g)... however, that same amount of kale contains 2.65 mg of phosphorus for an overall ratio of 2.41, which actually isn't all that bad. collard greens are a good bit lower than kale in calcium (3.26 mg per 1 Tbsp (2.25g))... but that same amount only contains .23 mg of phosphorus, giving it a ratio of 14.5:1 and making it more of a "threat" in regards to excess calcium than kale is by far.

at a certain point, the math just gets ridiculous to try to calculate and balance - it's really, truly not worth stressing yourself out over! the glider pages are worth skimming to get the general gist of things, but aren't worth stressing over. they definitely make me feel better about feeding kale pretty much daily, though (I'd prefer more variety, but Nala's a ridiculously picky little bitch about her veggies) - I was told it should be pretty strictly moderated due to both OA content and calcium, but the glider spreadsheets/charts show that the OA content is actually on the low side and much of the calcium is canceled out by the phosphorus content. as a result, I no longer feel the need to worry too much about the amount I'm feeding.

anyway, hope that helped without hurting your brain too much!

A bit late, but I think the problem is that no one really knows decisively what's good and what's bad. Unlike with dogs or cats, people have only popularized the idea that rabbits needed more than a small cage and pellets in the past decade or so. Every site makes different claims about some things, and some rabbits react completely differently to different foods. I totally know where you're coming from, having to worry about the nutritional content of every vegetable and such, but I think Imbrium is right that you'll just get a headache if you worry too much.

If it helps, what I'm trying to do is make a list of all okay veggies and then trying each one and crossing off the ones that don't sit well with her/grouping the ones she can only have a little of. Same with fruits/treats. That way as long as you rotate the ones that work you should have a nice balance. I think the general rule is to stay away from any people food - prepared/processed/otherwise. If you stick to whatever you can get straight from the ground, you should be fine. If you're looking for treats, try unsweetened cranberries or raisins - you can even break them up into tinier pieces and they LOVE them (and they're much healthier and cheaper than what you get at the pet store).

I think the paranoia with grains is probably related to an increase in celiac disease in people. Most rabbit pellets do have grain though, and most rabbits do fine.

For OP: Grape Nuts are probably a safe cereal, since they don't have sugar, and your rabbit has been doing fine with them. I wouldn't feed more than about 1/2 tsp a day though.