HarveyRabbit
New Member
So I guess this is a bit of a desperate post from me...
I have had my two bunnies now for about 3 months. Harvey, an english spot cross has been neutered since October (but owned since September) and Paul (some sort a lop breed but quite big) neutered since the beginning of December (adopted a week before).
They were introduced when we first got Paul, as we took Harvey to a bunny rescue to do a spot of bunny dating. Our first port of call was females but even though there was some lovely relaxed females they just showed intent on hurting each other.
We visited the rescue about 5 times over the space of a month to try him with various different bunnies (also as H is our first rabbit we wanted help from experts).
He took to an immature male- who we now know as Paul. They stomped their feet and hair pulled a little bit if one did something like climb over the other but otherwise it looked really optimistic and the rescue recommended that even though male and male bonds don't always work (and we'd have to be prepared to have two seperate rabbits) they think it seemed like his best bet. As Paul was immature we decided to take him home and work on the techniques like swapping cages, swapping litter trays etc.
Paul was neutered at the beginning of December and we read worst case scenario it can take over a month for the hormones to really get out of their system so for good measure we waited 2! We first tried them a week or two ago in a very small shower room, they were absolutely fine but immediately made their 'own territories'. Harvey took up one corner and Paul took up the other. They were absolutely fine, they both bunny flopped and their noses even touched. However the moment one went up to the other wasn't too great (they'd never been in the shower room before). They didn't do any damage but there was hair everywhere, the worry is when they go for it they go for it. They don't run away from one another (I suppose they've not been in a big enough space to). But it's clear they aren't going to back down.
We have tried the stress method of putting them in a cube on our extremely loud and bouncy washing machine and they are ok for a short while, Paul tried to snuggle up to Harvey (head down, especially if they've got themselves top to tail Paul will lay down and really nestle himself in). Harvey however just seems very angry, his ears will back and he will go very rigid. If Harvey gives a nip though Paul will come back 10x harder.
It just varies so much from day to day, the've only been mixed 3 times in the washing machine + cube situation and I made a short note of how it went (the first session was 5 minutes, the second 7 and the third 10).
First session: Paul got as close as he could to Harvey, head down and tried to nestle his head under his. Harvey at first ignored Paul but then started trying to bite Paul whenever he did this, Paul retaliated quite viciously every time (Harvey tried to get away while Paul pulled lots of hair out). Ended ok, Harvey relaxed but Paul didn't try to snuggle him again. Their bumbs were touching though. Ended the session.
Second session: Harvey slightly more relaxed, more interested in finding a way out of the cube than in Paul. Paul trying to take comfort again. Had a little spat but was easily separated with the dust pan. Didn't cuddle again but didn't go for each other. Paul laid down with his head directed towards Harvey, Harvey groomed himself. Ended the session.
Third session: Paul tries to first and foremost snuggle Harvey. Seems intent on trying to go top to toe. When they do Paul will lay his head on Harvey's bum and may have even licked him- definitely wasn't a nip (maybe 'chinning' him?). Harvey very unhappy randomly when Paul didn't even have his head on him, bunnies started attacking and ended up circling in the box. Had to remove one of them for a second and start again as they wouldn't be separated). Once put back together they were ok for a further 2 minutes, but immediately started scrapping again, small amount of hair pulling but it seemed to just be general panic- tried 'the smoosh' which worked but as soon as I stopped they pushed themselves to opposite sides of the cube (so still only a few cms between them). Harvey still had ears right back. Didn't fight again but was worried about them being too stressed to carry on so ended session after another minute or two so I knew they weren't going to remember their last session ending with a fight!
Just after today I feel so disheartened, they showed such fab signs the first time and Paul is clearly trying to snuggle with Harvey and take comfort. Harvey just appears so rigid and tense. Is it perhaps that they are boys that they will never be able to accept another male in their territory (or Harvey will never accept another male)?
It isn't a problem having two seperate rabbits necessarily and I love them both to the moon and back. Harvey is very demanding attention wise. He gets sad very easily if he doesn't have the company of a person for most of the day. They are both free range house rabbits, Harvey has upstairs and Paul has downstairs (impossible for them to get to each other, we have doors at the top and bottom of the starts and baby gates to stop them even getting to those doors!). When we got Paul we got them both cages for night time so we could put them next to each other and swap them around (Harvey was a bit upset as he will sleep on our bed or at least next to it!). They also swap floors for two-three nights a week.
It just throws another spanner in the mix. We have to get someone to stay at the house when we go away so we have always sought out real bunny lovers and every single one has made a comment on how friendly and sociable Harvey is. Before he was neutured we thought it was just his hormones but even now he's clambering all over me and binkying about because I've been out for an hour. Hence why we thought another rabbit would be a good thing. After speaking to the vets and a few rescues they also said it is definitely worth considering. At the end of the day I am only home so much because I'm doing my masters and have very little 'lecture time'. My boyfriend works full time so when I finish my degree this Summer theres a chance no one will be in the house in the daytime. It just makes me so sad to think of Harvey being lonely!
So now we have the deliberation of abandoning this bonding, but then what about Paul? Paul is far less interested in human contact but in all the sessions he's shown a clear desire to take comfort in having Harvey near him. So do we consider another rabbit to bond with Paul so he doesn't get lonely?
Luckily we're in the financial position where having another rabbit wouldn't be an issue and our house and garden are more than big enough for them to live the life of luxury like they do in. It wouldn't even really be a problem if the third rabbit doesn't bond and needed it's own space.
The issue is where do you stop...
So I suppose my final summary question is do people think it's worth battling on- maybe I haven't given the contact time long enough? 3 sessions isn't that much I guess. They will be ok sat together with no human interaction for periods of time and the 'biting' usually coincides with something, one of them shifting position, or sitting up to see if there is any exit to the cub of doom. The fight where one had to be taken out was quite bad. It was the worst so far and I wish I didn't separate them looking back but I was more worried about having a badly hurt rabbit. Will be putting them straight back together a minute or two later have made any difference or will that have damaged their chances at all? I know you aren't meant to completely seperate them as this 'gets them what they want' which is to be away from the other bun but it was after trying to seperate them by hand. Definitely getting my friend over for the next potential session!
It could be me entirely over reacting but I am just so nervous after that last session. My partner went away for the week today so it was my first session doing it alone- my friend has offered to come and help though if I need it. I just don't want to interrupt the process by not doing anything for a week but if it really doesn't sound like it's going to work out is it worth the stress on the buns, me and if it is down to Harvey associating other rabbits negatively do I really want the same thing to happen with Paul when he isn't necessarily the issue? Even though Paul fights back I've never seen him start or provoke Harvey at all- he just genuinely seems interested in trying to snuggle him... If he stands a chance of being able to have a relatively easy bonding process with another bunny maybe it's worth it?
Sorry for such a long post and thankyou so much to anyone who even just reads it <3 :hug2::cry1:
I have had my two bunnies now for about 3 months. Harvey, an english spot cross has been neutered since October (but owned since September) and Paul (some sort a lop breed but quite big) neutered since the beginning of December (adopted a week before).
They were introduced when we first got Paul, as we took Harvey to a bunny rescue to do a spot of bunny dating. Our first port of call was females but even though there was some lovely relaxed females they just showed intent on hurting each other.
We visited the rescue about 5 times over the space of a month to try him with various different bunnies (also as H is our first rabbit we wanted help from experts).
He took to an immature male- who we now know as Paul. They stomped their feet and hair pulled a little bit if one did something like climb over the other but otherwise it looked really optimistic and the rescue recommended that even though male and male bonds don't always work (and we'd have to be prepared to have two seperate rabbits) they think it seemed like his best bet. As Paul was immature we decided to take him home and work on the techniques like swapping cages, swapping litter trays etc.
Paul was neutered at the beginning of December and we read worst case scenario it can take over a month for the hormones to really get out of their system so for good measure we waited 2! We first tried them a week or two ago in a very small shower room, they were absolutely fine but immediately made their 'own territories'. Harvey took up one corner and Paul took up the other. They were absolutely fine, they both bunny flopped and their noses even touched. However the moment one went up to the other wasn't too great (they'd never been in the shower room before). They didn't do any damage but there was hair everywhere, the worry is when they go for it they go for it. They don't run away from one another (I suppose they've not been in a big enough space to). But it's clear they aren't going to back down.
We have tried the stress method of putting them in a cube on our extremely loud and bouncy washing machine and they are ok for a short while, Paul tried to snuggle up to Harvey (head down, especially if they've got themselves top to tail Paul will lay down and really nestle himself in). Harvey however just seems very angry, his ears will back and he will go very rigid. If Harvey gives a nip though Paul will come back 10x harder.
It just varies so much from day to day, the've only been mixed 3 times in the washing machine + cube situation and I made a short note of how it went (the first session was 5 minutes, the second 7 and the third 10).
First session: Paul got as close as he could to Harvey, head down and tried to nestle his head under his. Harvey at first ignored Paul but then started trying to bite Paul whenever he did this, Paul retaliated quite viciously every time (Harvey tried to get away while Paul pulled lots of hair out). Ended ok, Harvey relaxed but Paul didn't try to snuggle him again. Their bumbs were touching though. Ended the session.
Second session: Harvey slightly more relaxed, more interested in finding a way out of the cube than in Paul. Paul trying to take comfort again. Had a little spat but was easily separated with the dust pan. Didn't cuddle again but didn't go for each other. Paul laid down with his head directed towards Harvey, Harvey groomed himself. Ended the session.
Third session: Paul tries to first and foremost snuggle Harvey. Seems intent on trying to go top to toe. When they do Paul will lay his head on Harvey's bum and may have even licked him- definitely wasn't a nip (maybe 'chinning' him?). Harvey very unhappy randomly when Paul didn't even have his head on him, bunnies started attacking and ended up circling in the box. Had to remove one of them for a second and start again as they wouldn't be separated). Once put back together they were ok for a further 2 minutes, but immediately started scrapping again, small amount of hair pulling but it seemed to just be general panic- tried 'the smoosh' which worked but as soon as I stopped they pushed themselves to opposite sides of the cube (so still only a few cms between them). Harvey still had ears right back. Didn't fight again but was worried about them being too stressed to carry on so ended session after another minute or two so I knew they weren't going to remember their last session ending with a fight!
Just after today I feel so disheartened, they showed such fab signs the first time and Paul is clearly trying to snuggle with Harvey and take comfort. Harvey just appears so rigid and tense. Is it perhaps that they are boys that they will never be able to accept another male in their territory (or Harvey will never accept another male)?
It isn't a problem having two seperate rabbits necessarily and I love them both to the moon and back. Harvey is very demanding attention wise. He gets sad very easily if he doesn't have the company of a person for most of the day. They are both free range house rabbits, Harvey has upstairs and Paul has downstairs (impossible for them to get to each other, we have doors at the top and bottom of the starts and baby gates to stop them even getting to those doors!). When we got Paul we got them both cages for night time so we could put them next to each other and swap them around (Harvey was a bit upset as he will sleep on our bed or at least next to it!). They also swap floors for two-three nights a week.
It just throws another spanner in the mix. We have to get someone to stay at the house when we go away so we have always sought out real bunny lovers and every single one has made a comment on how friendly and sociable Harvey is. Before he was neutured we thought it was just his hormones but even now he's clambering all over me and binkying about because I've been out for an hour. Hence why we thought another rabbit would be a good thing. After speaking to the vets and a few rescues they also said it is definitely worth considering. At the end of the day I am only home so much because I'm doing my masters and have very little 'lecture time'. My boyfriend works full time so when I finish my degree this Summer theres a chance no one will be in the house in the daytime. It just makes me so sad to think of Harvey being lonely!
So now we have the deliberation of abandoning this bonding, but then what about Paul? Paul is far less interested in human contact but in all the sessions he's shown a clear desire to take comfort in having Harvey near him. So do we consider another rabbit to bond with Paul so he doesn't get lonely?
Luckily we're in the financial position where having another rabbit wouldn't be an issue and our house and garden are more than big enough for them to live the life of luxury like they do in. It wouldn't even really be a problem if the third rabbit doesn't bond and needed it's own space.
The issue is where do you stop...
So I suppose my final summary question is do people think it's worth battling on- maybe I haven't given the contact time long enough? 3 sessions isn't that much I guess. They will be ok sat together with no human interaction for periods of time and the 'biting' usually coincides with something, one of them shifting position, or sitting up to see if there is any exit to the cub of doom. The fight where one had to be taken out was quite bad. It was the worst so far and I wish I didn't separate them looking back but I was more worried about having a badly hurt rabbit. Will be putting them straight back together a minute or two later have made any difference or will that have damaged their chances at all? I know you aren't meant to completely seperate them as this 'gets them what they want' which is to be away from the other bun but it was after trying to seperate them by hand. Definitely getting my friend over for the next potential session!
It could be me entirely over reacting but I am just so nervous after that last session. My partner went away for the week today so it was my first session doing it alone- my friend has offered to come and help though if I need it. I just don't want to interrupt the process by not doing anything for a week but if it really doesn't sound like it's going to work out is it worth the stress on the buns, me and if it is down to Harvey associating other rabbits negatively do I really want the same thing to happen with Paul when he isn't necessarily the issue? Even though Paul fights back I've never seen him start or provoke Harvey at all- he just genuinely seems interested in trying to snuggle him... If he stands a chance of being able to have a relatively easy bonding process with another bunny maybe it's worth it?
Sorry for such a long post and thankyou so much to anyone who even just reads it <3 :hug2::cry1:
