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Cher

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2004
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Location
, Alberta, Canada
Before Ituck myself in for the night(well, ride home first-this cafe may be 24 hours but I dont think theywould appreciate a foreigner havin a good old sleep here!) I have twoquestions..

1. I have noticed that Jade is off her pellets completely-past 2 weeksor so she was getting picky and now she is just eating Timothy hay(hence the green cast in her raisins..and they are larger thanJezebel's and not brown and round..) Should I give hersomenurti calto try and get her back to pellets? stop any form oftreat? Jezebel seems to be making up for it and WONT stop eatingpellets, and looks like she isnt gaining a gram o weight-and she canhave a good chow down then 25 (oh yeah, I counted..) raisinslater..what is going on?

2.Jade's back feet look like an oldwashwoman's! Theyarepinker than normal and cracked (not to the point ofbleeding, or I would of rushed her tothe closestTaiwanHospital) and dry. She is drinking the usualamount~I havent used any type of cleaner in her cage, I dontknow what could be causing this-no open sores etc.

Thank you AHEAD of time, for indulging my questions with your mostknowledgeable answers. ...*grin grin* and as I posted earlier I amcoming in tomorrow to get caught up on the boards. I miss ya's and ofcourse my bun's ;)

Cher, Jezebel and Jade

 
Don't think the nutri-cal would hurt.Eliminating treats may help, as they do get fussy, like children, withwhat they eat and will have food tantrums where they will only eat whatthey like.

Is she pooping and peeing normally is perhaps more thequestion. I wouldn't worry too much about the color as longas the quantity and consistency is normal.

I quote one Rochelle Cooley, a noted rabbit breeder and ARBAregistrar regarding this problem in a post on the Rabbit WebMessage Board several years ago:

"What we did with out Lops was to put a piece of sheet rock[wall board]in the cage. Peel off the protectant cover so that the chalkysurface is exposed. It the hocks are already sore with opensores, then you probably want to treat itaggressively, I normally would get all infection,(pus)out, irragate[sic] it with peroxide and then flush withsaline solution. Once you have cleaned it andirragated[sic]it then I like using a spray calledFlorasolodine. It can be found in the horse section of mostfeed/farm supply stores. It is used in killing 3 types ofstaph germ. Spray this on the open wound areas and then applyeither some prep H[Preparation H Creme for hemorrhoids]or some tripleanti-biotic ointment. Make sure you flush the wound out dailyand then spray the florasolodine on again. Good idea torepeat process daily until the you see no more open wound."



Another rabbit breeder, Mr Rick Stahl,whose advice I hold in highesteem, and is currently a health consultant to ARBA ,wrote back inNovember of 2000:

"Sore hocks, very common with rex furred rabbits. the furpads are insufficient to provide the cushion to the feet., the tissuebreaks down and cellulitis develops. If the bacteriacausing the infection goes systemic, it could kill the rabbit, mostoften though they will actually starve to death. The stressof the infection causes GI Stasis, they quit eating and soon wasteaway. *Note: italics are mine by way of emphasis andcomparisonto some of the symptoms you areexperiencing. Buck*

Treatment is to clean up the ulcers. I use hydrogen peroxide3% (from grocery store) full strength to clean up the ulcers.I don't bother with ointments, the rabbit will only lick it offanyway. I put a Extrona type[plastic waffle]restingboard in the cage for the rabbit to sit on. These provide fordrainage of urine and stools, which would delay the healing andprovides for a gentler resting place than bare wire floor.Usually that is all that is necessary, but if infection is indeedsystemic then injections of Dura Pen(Procaine Pen Plus Benzathine Penin combination) can be given to fight the organisms. I use20,000 IU per pound SQ in the nape of the neck every otherday. This works out to 2/3 cc for a 10# rabbit,....I givethese injections for at least three days AFTER the infection hascleared, continuing to clean the ulcers daily with theperoxide. With time the ulcerated areas will heal and developcallus but usually don't regrow hair"

I don't know how "close" Jade's symptoms are to those describedabove. I do not wish to make a mountain out of a mole hill,nor to worry you unnecessarily, but I do know you are out there in the"hinterland." with, perhaps, not the best of veterinary care, so I tookthe liberty to quote these people, both of whom I consider authoritieson rabbit husbandry, and let you draw your own conclusions, if any.

If Pam Nock gets back online, I am sure she would have some additional comments that would be helpful, as well.

Buck

 
We use the plastic resting boards that have drainholes and are easily disinfected. I don't recommend thesheetrock, carpet, towels, or any material that can harbor moisture andbacteria.

I am guessing that the fact she's off feed and now developing sorehocks indicates an immune deficiency issue andthetissueon her feet isbreaking down. Age,illness, parasites, etc. can be factors. This is a problem weexperienced a lot with other or ill horses and the fact that they wouldalso often develop skin problems.

The Nutri Cal is easy to digest and helps give the immune system aboost as well as providing complex B vitamins to stimulate theappetite. You can also offer a little dark, leafy greens,vegetables, parsley and small amounts of fruit along with the hay.

Pam
 
Thankyou sooooo much both ofyou! She is just a younging 6 months) and her cagefloor is plastic (and cleaned once a day, not with cleaner though) soher feet are never exposed to wire. She is heartily consuming timothyhay, one yogurt drop at bedtime and drinking water as per usual. Herappetite for fresh fruit is still aggressive and she would beat me overthe head with a stick(well if she was privvy to suchthings)to get at some! It is one of the only times she joinsme on the couch..and then leaves me when she realizes she isnt gettinganymore :(

I took another look at her feet this morning, its her back ones thatseem to be the most affected. They are swollen a bit, and a few of thepads are worn (sore hocks?) Her stool is consistently large, moist attimes, sometimes full of hay texture (more so than Jezebel's brownballs) and she seems to be peeing as per usual.

OH BUCK you were not far off in saying I am in "hinterland", althoughmy vet tries to do his best..they just dont know their rabbits wellenough.Getting the nurti-cal and leafy greens/fruit isnt a problem(courtesy of their Auntie Carolyn)Shehas not lostany weight, if anything her little gut seems to bequitenormal..but I am still a little worried-how long until Ibecome an overly reacting mom and take her to the vet? Will thisproblem clear up with the dosage of nurtical and greens? Unfortunatelywithout a vet's prescriptions I do not have access to the other thingshere :X

Pam : I have noticed a few bugs around their cages-we have very oddbugs here-and most people think it is quite normal to live with them(when in Rome...) could this be an issue?

As far as my reference to treats-I was speaking of the yogurt drops andfruit from time to time. She has quite a bit of fur in her poopsometimes and mango/papaya and pineapple seem to "flush" it out. BUThere is a concern-she isnt getting a large amount of fruit, maybe 1teaspoon every other day-is there a possibility it is too much fruitacid? I just dont understand how hocks could develop on my girls feeton a clean plastic floor UNLESS of course it started before she losther appetite for pellets and then I understand the immune systembreaking down, and the whole cycle beginning..

Sorry for the novella :?

Cher

 
Bless your heart, Cher. I wishthat I could offer you some good advice on this, but all I can do atthis point is to send prayers and goodwill your way from Sherman andme.

Good luck in this. I know that it must be frustratingto not have the appropriate level of veterinary care there to get thisissue resolved.
 
It's hard to know how to approach the problemwhen we really don't know what's wrong. Pain management maybe necessary as the tissue breakdown (sore hocks) is painful and thestress will lead to further immune depression.

There have been studies in the use of Omega-3 fatty acids toboost immunity and strenghten body tissues. Here's anexcellent article on inflammation and immune response.

http://web.indstate.edu/nurs/mary/PATHOPHY.htm

Has Jade been treated for parasites? I would recommend Ivomectreatment. Any type of parasite can weaken the immune system.

I would also recommend blood tests to give an indication on what'sgoing on in the rabbit's system. I'm not sure you want to gothrough the expense though.

Are the rabbits outside at all? Fungal/bacterial infectionscan cause inflammation in the legs. (Wet grass is often theculprit). You may find that antibiotic treatment oranti-fungal medication may become necessary.

Do continue with the Nutri Cal. It's very easy for thedigestive system to utilize which helps to boost the immune system.

Please keep us updated on the situation,

Pam
 

Thank you, BuckJones for your references and advice. One can never be too careful or cautioned.

* * * * * * * *

So glad to have you back, Dr. Pam.

Once Jade is treated with Ivermectin and NutriCal, is there a chance ather showing results of effectiveness within a day or two if it is dueto the parasites and she's only off her pellets but not all food orwater?

I would think she'd also want to treat Jez with the Ivermectin, no? Hereating everything in sight and not gaining weight is a bit of a concernto me if parasites are around.

When or what conditions would Cher have to consider antibiotics?

-Carolyn
 
Carolyn wrote:
When or what conditions would Cher have to consider antibiotics?


She would want to discuss this with her vet. In similar caseswith horses, we'd use steroids in conjunction with antibiotics.

Pam
 
Cher wrote:
Pam : I have noticed a few bugs around their cages-we have very oddbugs here-and most people think it is quite normal to live with them(when in Rome...) could this be an issue?


I'm not sure if the bugs are an issue or not. I would try toget rid of them as the bug bites could cause an auto immune response.

Pam
 

Thank you for your response, Pam.

It sure is comforting to have you back.


:dude:

-Carolyn
 
You guys are amazing! <-----thatsme, but seriously I can't be too careful when it comes to their health.Jade must think I am insane now, after coddling her all last night thenI took a teaspoon and fed her some nurtical~she liked the first "lick"and then realized it wasnt verygood. Soooo...I said "fongle?" her little eyes opened up really wide and Iput a bigdollop of nurtical onthe---> Andshe greedily ate it up, and then some. Good sign-

Carolyn thankyou soo much for your kindness in the upcomingdelivery I was thinking about my post last night and I should reiterate its notthat thevets are unkind or dont have a clue, but to put itmildly, they think a rabbits life span is 2 years~say no more.

After her nutrical snack last night her poops looked pretty good thismorning, and ALSO I should mention Jezebel is horrendously active, asdescribed in a previous post sheGALL OPSthrough the apartment, this girl doesnt know the meaning of run...andthe two are like night and day in the activity department..I will findJezebel in the most particular spots where as Jade is a professionallounger a day in the life of Jezebel

So I dont know if the lack of weight gain on Jezebel's part should beof concern? I think that is it for now. OH and no they are neveroutside..forgot that tidbit...

Once again thank you Dr.Pam, Auntie Carolyn, Mr.Buck and BunnyMommy for all your wonderful advice and thoughts
Cher


 
Here's more of my ramblings after sleeping on it for a night. . .

Knowing that they are not outside is helpful, as that rules out the common cause of fungus.

Jade's color pattern is a lightly marked broken. In general,some (but not all) do not utilize their food well due to a lack ofproper nerve developement in the gut. This problem isconnected with the gene that limits the migration of color during fetaldevelopement. This is part of the reason I'm recommendingNutri Cal.

So what in the world does this have to do with feet? It'spossible that if she's not metabolizing her food well, it could resultin an autoimmune response.

Of course, I'm just throwing out ideas . . .

Pam
 
In the meantime, anyone who is following thisthread is sure to learn a wealth of new knowledge, which I sincerelyhope will not be at Jade's expense in the long run. We allwant this to be over quickly, with no serious after effects, and to beable to slap one another on the backs and say, "Well,now,weren't we all just being the needless worrywortsafterall?"

Prayers are with you from the California side of the Pacific, I assure you!

Buck
 


Pamnock,

What daily dosage amount of NutriCal would you recommend Jade be getting?

Should Jez be getting a small dose as well if bugs were present?

* * * * * *

Cher,

Were they littermates?

-Carolyn
 
Good news and odd news~I am a completenutball..are ya'll ready for agood
4_1_72.gif
?In aknowledge sharing kinda of way of course..

Last night I cleaned out they're boxes apu, and decided to foragearound, with the scooper,in the droppings while they werefloating in the toilet (a littleon the odd side, but you dowhat you have to do when yourbun's health is an issue ) And Ifound all these floating dead bugs. Suffice to say I freaked out,called the vet to make sure he would be the vet on duty Sat morning andcuddled my poor Jade, soothing her bug infested little body..

so I thought

Took them both in, he had a look through a microscope at various baggedsamples I brought in (brought litter too) The bugs? I am sucha they were dead already and IN the pellets of litter, not my Jade..

I am also very very
4_18_5.gif
. Seems Idid not have enough faith (?) in my vet. Perhaps justifiable, but I amhoping some peeps here can help me out with it. He showed me the"findings" on a television screen of what he was looking atunder the microscope and apparently she has a very large amount ofhairballs, which I have already started to correct. His otherconclusion was "scabies" a form of parasite. Now, it happens quite abit here in Taiwan with translation from Chinese to English, and hecould not even think of the medical term in English for what she has,does anyone know? She received a shot, and will have to go back for 3subsequent shots. She also received some medication. Everything shouldbe cleared up within 3 weeks.

So Pam, thank you-I believe you hit the nail on the head with her typeof breed and digestive system. Since, I have had problems, albeit notalways serious, with her. Poor thing though.

I could not understand HOW she became ill. After pressing thevet about it, he finally asked me what I feed her. Quote "Do not feedthem anything made in Taiwan, the factories are no good no sorting"Which I take to mean, poor health conditions, not any regulations etcin the feed production. He suggested buying "imported" food. This mustof taken a lot for him to have to say, and I appreciated it very much.

I told him about the nutrical and the upcoming delivery, and got thego-ahead on both. Not to go above his head, but I do believe I have awider knowledge base HERE so I was going to with or without hisword Asfar as litter mates, they have been separated since the hormonal ragingphase about 2 months ago. He is aware of them NOT sharing a cage, buthaving free run together and warned ME I can contact this withoutproper hand washing--->therefore I would draw the conclusion socan Jezebel and to not allow them interaction until this parasite isabolished?



THANK-YOU again Dr.Nock, Auntie Carolyn, Mr.Buck and BunnyMommy your support during my rather spazzy time has meant a lot to me!

Cher, Jezebel and Jade (to end this on a happy note, I changed herfood-nuticalled her on some mango andshe wasmunchinghappily on the new food...when I left this evening)

YAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO





 
Carolyn wrote:
Pamnock,

What daily dosage amount of NutriCal would you recommend Jade be getting?

Should Jez be getting a small dose as well if bugs were present?

* * * * * *

Cher,

Were they littermates?

-Carolyn


Hi Carolyn,

Dosage is approx. 1 inch per day. If Jez is eating a balanceddiet, Nutri Cal is not necessary due to it's high calorie content.

Pam
 
Can you post some photos of Jade'sfeet? Is she overweight? I wasn't sure how old theavatar photo was, so I was assuming she was slim -- but just wanted todouble-check.

Pam
 
[*]
Ulcerative Pododermatitis- (Sore hock)

  • Clinical signs include lesions on plantar aspect of tarsus fromalopecia and erythema to erosions/ulcerations andosteomyelitis/synovitis.

  • Diagnosis-PE and history. Obesity, wire flooring, breed predisposition

  • Take radiographs and C/S

  • Treament- depends on severity of disease. Correct underlyingproblems. Bandaging, antibiotics, AIPMM beads, joint flushing,arthrodesis of joint, analgesics, anti-inflammatories, and amputationif necessary in 1 hind limb.
 
She is not overweight (she has very small feetand legs compared to her body though) and a littlegut on her . I do believe predisposition of breed is a major factor,and not obesity nor wire bottomed cage. Now during MY inspection of herfeet, it is just one that is slightly swollen,and a more pinkish castthan what is normal. The skin is dry on all feet, best to describe itas compared to someone with eczema, with the worst case being on theone foot. There are no open sores, scabbing, bleeding, but instead itlooks like the pad has been worn down unnecessarily. I hope thisdescription helps. She is about the same size as her avatar.

Cher
 
I would continue to closely monitor thesituation. Some rabbits don't progress any further than barecalloused feet. The swelling you mentioned is a concern andyou may want to ask the vet about anti-inflammatories.

Darn it -- I just noticed that only part of the info I copied andpasted came through on my last post and the reference I posted with itat the end is not there.

http://www.vetsoftware.com/acvc2002-wilson4.htm

Pam

 

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